Audrey G
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Interviewer: Okay, so my name is Vrindavani, and we are having a conversation with Audrey G for the Trans Abortion Oral Histories Project. Today is July 9th, 2025, and this conversation is taking place virtually. So Audrey, would you like to tell us a little bit about yourself?
Participant: Yeah, well, thank you. I'm excited to be here. My name is Audrey G, I am 26 years old, I use they them pronouns, and I identify as a queer, non-binary, mixed person who lives up in the Midwest, but I'm originally from Texas. And I currently work at an abortion fund in the Midwest.
Interviewer: Awesome. So you said you were like born and raised in Texas?
Participant: Mm-hmm (affirmative). Well, I was born in California, but that was a very brief period, and then we moved immediately to Texas.
Interviewer: How was it like growing up in Texas?
Participant: Yeah. Um, I grew up in a very… I lived in Austin for a little bit until I was six, and then we moved up to a suburb in the Dallas-Fort Worth area, just because those cities are so big, it was like a suburb kind of in the middle. And that is where I spent most of like my formative years before I went to college in Austin. And that community was a very white, very wealthy, kind of isolated suburb. So honestly it was a very confusing time as a child. I feel like I got a lot of different messages. I grew up in a pretty Catholic family and we were very involved in like a conservative Catholic Church. We went to church every Sunday. Faith was like a big thing. We like prayed every day. Like it just, it was the worldview that I like grew up in. And I was like so religious at one point, I remember telling my mom that I wanted to become a nun. I was like in fourth grade. I was like this is the path you know like this is the right thing to do. And so I like, you know, I think in Catholicism and I think in a lot of like very traditional churches or traditional religions there is this idea of a binary. Like there is the right way to live and there is the wrong way to live, and I was very attached to that. But it was also very confusing because my parents, while faith was really important to them, they were way more liberal with how they applied that faith. So like, they were tolerant of abortion. They believed that it was someone's choice, you know, it's more conditional.
Interviewer: That's strange.
Participant: I know, it was very strange to like, receive that. And then also like, they were tolerant of gay people. Like my mom, instead of having a maid of honor, she had a best man, and he was like her best friend. So I just, yeah, like I said, like I just received a lot of mixed messaging. So I was like, I don't know what is the right thing, what is the wrong thing. And I think that the church was also very kind of quiet about it too. Like you could tell that they were like anti-abortion, anti-trans, anti-queer, but the only time they would mention that would be once a year in like a homily or like a sermon. That like it almost felt like the priest had to get out of the way. He had to be like, all right let's remember like we're against all these different things and then that was it. There were like anti-abortion groups in my church. And a few times a year, there would be fake clinics that the church supported that would come in and play a video or do a demonstration. I don't think I fully understood it, but I do know that my parents were uncomfortable during those moments, too, where they were like, eh, we don't really agree. It was very much like, take what works for you and discard what doesn't. Like, the church, there is the word of God, but the church is made of men, or humans. So, there's gonna be faults. Which is, you know, one way of viewing faith. But yeah, it just, yeah, it was a very confusing time. And I think like also, you know, as a kid you're confused. And then like add in like being queer and trans and not really having spaces to really explore that. Because like it wasn't… there really wasn't many spaces in school or church. Yeah, I guess I'll stop there. But I can, yeah, we can go into more detail about other stuff if you would like.
Interviewer: Yeah, so, so you were pretty much like you said, praying every day, part of the church. How was like your school life then? Like, did you go to like Catholic school as well? Or like…
Participant: Yeah, I went to public school. That was like the main reason why my parents had moved out to that particular, like place was because like, the school was really good. Probably because like in Texas, property taxes pay for the school. So if you are in a place with high property taxes, that school is going to be well resourced. And yeah, I think it was mainly white, and then there was a small minority of Asian people. So those were the people that I mainly hung out with. Which was also kind of a confusing time like in terms of like how I viewed my race as like a mixed person. Like part Vietnamese, part white. And so in those spaces, I was always viewed as like Asian. And so I kind of like subscribe to like the minority myth in a way. Like that was a way for me to understand my own Asian-ness. It's not how I would identify now because I think I have more like historical context. But that felt like one of the connections that I had. And I was always seen as that. So it was a weird time too. Like when I was with my Vietnamese side of the family or if we ever went into like a Vietnamese like side of the community, I would be automatically like white. But then at the same time, like praised for being white. Weird time. It was very much like a, you're on the outside, but like, we also love that you look like this. And it didn't feel good. But I also understand there's like a lot of privileges with being close to whiteness too. But as a kid, like, I don't think I fully… I like understood kind of what was happening, but I didn't understand the historical context for that. Like how white supremacy really influences those kind of views. Um, yeah, so, so it was kind of –
Interviewer: Did you like not hang out with like the white kids at your school? Like you said, you mostly hung out with like the small like group of like Asian students. Which are not mostly Vietnamese or were they just like a diverse like Asian population?
Participant: I mean there was like a diverse Asian population. There was never like enough of like one particular minority group where, like it was just a group of them and they all shared –
Interviewer: Oh, it was that small. It was that small of a group of like… so mostly white white students at your school then?
Participant: Yeah yeah yeah. And then all the Asian kids would just like hang out together. Yeah. And we were like, you know, all in the same classes because like you, a lot of people take AP classes and so that kind of like segregates you more. Yeah. And then I was like in a program for people who wanted to go into pre-med because I thought that's what I wanted to do. But yeah, and so when you're in that program, it's even smaller. Yeah, yeah.
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Interviewer: So but you didn't but you didn't really hang out with like the white students in your in your school?
Participant: No, not really. Yeah, I think… I mean I don't know if this is true or not. This is I think is like just how I internalized it as a kid, but I did often feel like an outsider with them. And I felt more aligned with Asian kids. Like I felt like our home lives made more sense that way, even though I had a white dad. Like our goals felt more similar. Yeah, so those are just kind of the people that I gravitated towards. Most of them were straight. I don't think I met any gay people until like the end of high school maybe, when I was like kind of coming to terms with that. And then later in college.
Interviewer: But you said like your parents were always like, well, pro-choice and like acceptable of gays or whatever. Like, I don't know how you would frame it, but like even having your mom be like having a best man that's like a gay man is really interesting, especially for being super Catholic. But like, how was it like, not just like coming out but coming into like your own sexuality like growing up? Like what were some of like images or other narratives around sexuality growing up?
Participant: Yeah, well, I grew up in a very like abstinence only kind of air. Like there was not much sex ed. And so I think with that also, there's not much talk about how different sexualities exist, what are different ways to be in gender. And that also being seen as okay. I think when I was a kid, I would often ask my parents, like, would you still love me if I was gay? And they were like, yeah, of course, but like your life would be so much harder. And it was very much positioned as like, why would you choose to do something that would make your life harder? Almost like a choice. So I feel like I would describe their attitudes as tolerant, even if, like, maybe they didn't express it. They, like, if you were to ask them that, they wouldn't say that. But the way that they talked about it, especially in terms of, like, me, their child, it came across as that. And so those were the kind of the messages I received. It wasn't really, like, an emotionally safe place to go to with them because they were were dealing with their own stuff. And they've come a long way since then. But as a kid, I think it was very lonely like coming to terms with that, just because I didn't have many friends who I felt shared that experience. So I think I came of age and like came into myself, and this is very like Gen Z, but through the internet. Um, so I, like, saw things on Tumblr and, like, would look up things on Instagram, and the first time that I think I, like, realized that something… that I didn't… that I wanted to identify myself in a way that was not aligned with the models that I had seen of, like, heterosexuality and traditional femininity, was through finding a photo of Erika Linder, who was like a Swedish model, who got famous because she models both male and female clothing. And so there was a point where she dressed up as Leonardo DiCaprio and people were posting it. And I was like, dear Lord, I don't know if I wanna be her or if I wanna be with her. And that really stuck with me. She was a very androgynous person in the way that she dressed, in the way that she presented herself. And I just found that very intriguing. And I couldn't identify why. And so for a while, I was like, oh, it's because I'm queer. And then later, I was like, maybe there was something else, actually. Yeah. Yeah
Interviewer: And this was like during like you said coming of age, so like middle school kind of thing like or how old were you?
Participant: It started in middle school but I don't think I came to terms with my queerness until I was 16. So it was a lot of like maybe a little bit of repression I would say.… Like very much like dealing with it on my own because I didn't know who was a safe person to talk about that with. It was also confusing too because my mom grew up in a family of girls, mainly girls. She was one out of eight, so there were two boys and six girls. But the way that she decided to live her life was seen as very masculine. And so she really like embodied that. And so femininity, like traditional femininity, was kind of looked down on in my family. And I grew up with two brothers. So often I was treated like as a boy. And I was very like, I had a period of like, where I played with dresses, and then I transitioned into like, being more tomboyish. But that is like often seen as like a phase. You're like eventually you're gonna grow out and you're gonna grow up and you're gonna be you know more traditionally feminine. Not too much because then you won't be taken seriously, but you can't act like a man because that would be not okay. And so it was a lot of confusing messaging around that when I was like coming to terms with how I wanted to present myself and how I viewed my own gender.
Interviewer: You want to tell me a little bit more about like you coming into your gender and sexuality around 16 or like how was that process?
Participant: Yeah um I was always worried… and this is something I think I'm still struggling with today and like trying to come to terms with and understand how my childhood impacted my own emotional landscape. But I always remember fearing that I was taking up space in an identity that didn't belong to me. So for a long time I was like, am I an ally or like, am I actually gay? Like is this something that I can say? And so that was like, 14 was when I kind of like knew something was happening. But it wasn't until I was like 16 that I think I admitted to a friend of mine that I like was interested in girls. So it was like, oh, I'm bisexual. And I didn't plan on telling my parents until later because I think I wanted to understand that more. But when I was 18, and you're going to college, you're living in the dorms, like I wanted to be in a safe space. So it was very important for me to like be with a roommate that was open to queerness, like okay with that. And I remember telling my parents that. I don't know why, but I did. And they were like why are you so… who cares you know? Which first off I don't know if that's like the best response period because I would think someone would want to be with someone who's pretty open regardless. But yeah, I was like… that's when I like admitted to them. And my mom did, yeah, she reacted so interestingly. Like just… and I think that's what like a lot of parents go through. It's like, oh, it's okay if these people are gay and queer and live life in a way that like I wouldn't, but I accept them. It's another thing when like my own child is choosing to do something like that. So I felt like that was kind of like the first break in a way, where like I was kind of defining who I was outside of the family. Which I think like a lot of queer people go through maybe earlier than I think straight people really are expected to. But I don't know, that might be an assumption.
Interviewer: If they ever do, I don't know.
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Participant: That's a good point, if they ever do. Sometimes it hits them a lot later, yeah. But yeah, and I think like my queerness also helped me with standing, like figuring out what my own values were in terms of like abortion and contraception and like the kind of views that I wanted to have and that I thought were… I won't say correct because that's how I viewed the world at that moment was like what is right and what is wrong. Now I think I'm trying to have a little more nuance because we live in a very like nuanced world. And… sorry, I lost my train of thought. Yeah, and then I think like I came into my transness more so in college when I like started gravitating towards more queer and trans people of color. We had this like student… within like the student activity center, there was like a multicultural engagement center, which now unfortunately does not exist anymore because the University of Texas at Austin stripped their funding. So all the student organizations under that now have to get their own funding and don't live, I don't believe, on campus anymore, which really sucks. And that was a really pivotal space for me. I think that's where I came into my queerness more, understood it more, found community with other queer people on campus. And also where I started to see other people identify with their gender differently, and that being okay to experiment with. I think I viewed queerness very much as like a, okay, once you say this, that you're this forever. You can't go back or you can't experiment. And also that feeling of not wanting to take up space and like be the wrong kind of insert blank, you know? And then, you know, of course COVID hit. And I think a lot of, along with a lot of people, they started, they started like experimenting with pronouns, having that space where like I wasn't always seen and perceived I think really helped too with being comfortable with seeing myself differently. And I went back and forth on whether or not I wanted people to really see me differently. Because I was like, well, maybe I could just… maybe I was expanding what a woman meant. Which, like, is so valid. But I think for me, I was just like, no, actually, like, I don't view myself under a particular gender. And there are so many different ways to be a non-binary person, and I was like, and I'm this way, and that's fine. So I like viewed it more as like an exploration and something like more fun than like something like really distressing. Because I don't think I experienced as much like gender distress as like other people that I had seen online or maybe friends that I had talked to. And so when I heard that I was like, oh, maybe I'm not, but there is no like one way to be. And so I was like, yeah, I can experiment with non-binary and trans and be under this umbrella. And I am willing to go through that discomfort of asking other people to respect how I view myself and how I wish to be viewed. Yeah.
Interviewer: So do you like, so I was gonna ask you, like, around this time, like narratives of like, being trans means like you have like gender dysphoria. Like you like you came up you came against those narratives? Or like did those narratives also impede you from like figuring out your own gender? Because you said you didn't have that kind of distress around your body or your gender like presentation.
Participant: Yeah, I think both honestly. Like I came across those, especially like in a medical setting. Like, in order to get testosterone, you often have to go to a doctor and be like, these areas are causing me distress, so therefore I need gender like therapies. Which I kind of had to do when I started testosterone. But I think also like it was like a prevailing narrative, especially like I want to say like the late 2010s when I was in college. But then like you know online online discourse is different than like discourse with people who are actually like –
Interviewer: In real life.
Participant: Yeah in real life. And so when I was like talking with people I was like, oh, it's actually not that serious. Like I can literally decide for myself and identify in this way. And it not being like a, oh, you're choosing to make it harder for yourself. Like you're choosing to live life in a different way and align in a gender identity that feels more true to you.
Interviewer: Mm-hmm, so you came into like your gender through your exploration of your sexuality. Would that be like the path through?
Participant: Yeah, I think so. Yeah, because I think like queerness too, like that label, allows for so much fluidity. Which I loved. Like, there's so much experimentation, like playfulness that exists in that. There isn't like a box that you really need to fill. Which, yeah, is never really how I saw myself. Like, even when I was young. Like I was just Audrey. But I don't think I really got to like accept that until I got older and kind of like created that sense of self.
Interviewer: And like this kind of happened in your college years in Austin?
Participant: Yeah. I think having that like distance from family and like that community I grew up in helped with like creating who I wanted to be.
Interviewer: Were you able to like go back to your parents and talk to them about your gender, like exploration and identity at that time?
Participant: Yeah, I asked them to refer to me in a different way when I left college. They tried, and they were open to it. And then I think like I was really nervous when I told them I was on testosterone. Because I was like eventually I'm going to have to tell you because you'll probably be noticing like some differences. And that was a little bit of a harder conversation. I don't know if they fully understand that still. But that's okay. I don't need them to like fully understand it, I just need them to respect it.
Interviewer: Right. You want to tell me more about your journey going on testosterone? And like, are you currently on testosterone now?
Participant: Yeah. I am not currently on testosterone. I just stopped. And I was on a low dose for about two years. And there were so many things that I really loved about it. I think it helped me like play around with gender a little bit more. Like it makes like tiny changes to your body that you don't realize people are paying attention to in terms of gender. And so it allowed me to kind of experiment what that would be like to like be walking in the world and be gendered differently or be seen differently. And I think it allowed me to be more comfortable in my body. And there were also drawbacks. Like with testosterone you have increased acne production, you have like mood swings, cause you're kind of going through second puberty. You have hair loss, which I experienced. But so that's why like, I think I… but then at the same time too, I was aging. Like I started it when I was like 24 or so. And so now I'm 26. Like that period also is when you experience changes in your face as well. And what I also love… what I loved about being in community with other trans people, including my partner, who went on testosterone and then got off testosterone during our relationship, it helped me realize that if I start it, that doesn't mean I have to continue it. And I can always come back to it. So I think I'm just in a period of my life where I'm like, okay, I think I want to see how my body is without testosterone and how I feel in it. And then if I want to go back, I can go back. I will say the current administration does scare me a lot in terms of access to that kind of hormone therapy. And there was a part of me that was like, maybe I should just stay on it because I don't know when I'm gonna have access to this again. But also I don't want that to be why I decide… I totally understand that that is a very prevalent factor in people's experiences. But for me, I didn't want that to be the reason why I chose different ways of relating to my body. I just felt like it took the autonomy out of it. So that's kind of like my journey with testosterone. We'll see. It'll probably change as I get older. But I really loved that experience. And I think also what helped me realize, oh, I can just try this, is when I got together with my partner a few years ago, and they were on testosterone, and they were like, it's easy. You just have to do this, and here are the changes you may experience. And I was like, oh, this is not some of those… like it is life-altering, but like it's not like life ending if I decide like this isn't what I wanna do. Like I can try it and see how it works for me.
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Interviewer: Like we could be T-boys together.
Participant: Yeah. Definitely.
Interviewer: I mean, so what kind of made you decide to like pause it for now?
Participant: Yeah, it was the hair loss.
Interviewer: Okay.
Participant: Yeah, it was the hair loss. I just… and it affects people differently. And for some people like that is, that's totally okay. Like the other things are worth the the benefits. But for me I… it was distressing to lose that much hair when I was like 25.
Interviewer: Yeah, thanks for sharing. Yeah, I know that's like a big… I mean, no, I know people who use like Rogaine and things like that to like combat the hair loss and stuff too. Or even if they have like patchy hair growing in, they want to like have like a fuller beard and things like that. So yeah.
Participant: Yeah, I was on finasteride for a bit, which helps like stop the hair loss. But that also has its set of side effects and that was just like not worth it at this time.
Interviewer: Thanks for sharing that. I wanted to like kind of go back to… you mentioned how your sexuality or the fluidity like kind of also built in your values of like contraception and abortion. I wanted you to like to… if you would like to go back to you thinking about and doing kind of like abortion work, kind of when did that start? And how did you start? Yeah, being like kind of pro choice, pro choice, maybe at the time or pro abortion? I'm not quite sure how you identified but…
Participant: Yeah. Identify as pro-abortion, for sure. And I feel like when I was coming into my queerness is when I also started questioning a lot of teachings of the church. I was like, this just doesn't make any sense. This feels like a method of control. And so when I was able to exercise my own autonomy in terms of how I viewed my sexuality and my gender, I think that really influenced how I viewed abortion and contraception. Because I think those are practices of autonomy as well. And when I came into those values, along with the political awakening that I think a lot of people experienced in 2020, when I was also in college, I think that all of that together, along with my women and gender studies degree, which kind of like primed me for that. All of that together allowed me to explore my political views and how I wanted to show up in the world. And I think like, I really love looking at the political context that is tied with being queer. And looking also at that historical context. I think that really influenced how I put together my own political viewpoints and what I stood for. Because we know that gender oppression, sexual oppression, that is so deeply linked to all the different isms that exist in the world, as well as like white supremacy, colonialism, you know, capitalism. And so that and the practice of bodily autonomy really put that all together. I don't know if that makes sense. But it really was like a web. And it like… there was a point in college where I was like, oh my god, all of this is connected. So like, where do I go from here? Like, what do I want to do about it? Like, how do I want to get involved in movements happening? How do I want to lead the rest of my life? Which I'm still figuring out. Still trying to figure out like, where do I want to show up? Like, what do I have capacity for? How do I want to continue growing and learning from other people's experience, as well as, like, being on the front lines in abortion care?
Interviewer: But you said you grew up, like, pro-choice. So, like, when you're going in, like, this woman's studies, gender studies classes, like, were there any kind of, like, undoing of, of anti-abortion stigma or rhetoric that you're like confronting or…
Participant: Yeah, I think so. I grew up very much of like pro-choice but like conditional. So it's like don't do it too much you know?
Interviewer: Well, I feel like that's what pro-choice is. I feel like pro-choice is like conditional. But like I don't know.
Participant: No, that's a good point. Yeah yeah so you're yeah it's like you have a choice and you better choose like the right choice. And I think through college, and then later on too, I began to see it more as like a decision. Like this is a decision that a person decides is best for them. This is a healthcare service. There is no morality attached to this. It's an exercise of someone's bodily autonomy, which is so linked to, like, queer liberation, like we talked about before. And so that's kind of… you know, I think it was in college, but I will say, like, during that period in college, I, like, sought out… like, well, there wasn't that much to do, like in the COVID pandemic, especially at the height. So I was just on webinars like trying to learn as much as I could about capitalism, socialism, like communism, reproductive justice. And so like going through all these different trainings that all these different organizations were putting together. Meeting with different people, organizing and like mutual aid spaces is where I like started to also continue to put together like my own political viewpoints. And how, and like undoing, like you were saying, like those anti-abortion myths of like, oh, actually, like who cares if people are using this as quote unquote birth control? Like who cares if people are having multiple abortions? Like that is what is best for them. And we're gonna make sure that like, they can do what they need to do. Yeah, really letting go of that judgment, I think, of how other people decide to live their lives. Especially once you realize like, like you're never gonna understand completely what they're going, what people are going through, but when you realize all the different factors that are stacked against them and how all these different movements are intertwined, it's easier to be like, yeah, like I'm down. What do you need? How can we support you in getting what you need? So it was kind of a ramble.
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Interviewer: No, no, no, no, I appreciate that. So you said you were like on webinars in the beginning of the pandemic and all this was during when you were still in Austin. Is that right?
Participant: Yeah, I was still, no, go ahead, go ahead.
Interviewer: Well, I was gonna say like you were also doing like support of like mutual aid, like organizing in Austin too?
Participant: Yeah, let me pull that up. Yeah, so I, for the first part of college, I volunteered for like direct service nonprofits. Because I was trying to figure out like what I wanted to do outside of college. So I started like experimenting with that. Then in 2020, with the rise of mutual aids, I supported people in that, mainly for like unhoused communities, but also like calling people and letting them know their rights as like the evictions were going on. Then I graduated with public health, with a double degree in public health and women gender studies in 2021. And I honestly like concentrated a lot of my studies during that time on reproductive rights and justice, particularly on the policy side, because I thought that's what I wanted to go into. So while I was there, I like wrote a few posts for a small blog affiliated with the university that like specialized in like women's health care issues. And then during that time I mostly wrote about abortion policies in Texas. And then I worked for a non-profit that looked into anti-trans, anti-abortion organizations and did like research on them, which also helped me undo a lot of my... If I had anything left, it was gone by then. Just like...
Interviewer: You want to talk more about that?
Participant: Yeah I think it's just because like it was some vile stuff out there. And even the most quote-unquote innocuous anti-trans sentiment or like anti-trans or anti-abortion sentiment, like that can creep into the mainstream. Which is a… yeah. They like, well… sorry, let me start over. The anti-trans, anti-abortion organizations are very smart. A lot of their rhetoric is in the mainstream, and they try to make their rhetoric based off of science and also seem innocuous, like common sense. But once you see how organized they are and who they're connected with and what the goals of these organizations are, it was easy for me at least to be like, no, this is actually very sinister and I am not on board for policing anybody's access to care. And you start noticing how a lot of questions around abortion originate from those viewpoints. And how they're related to eugenics and white supremacy and colonialism and imperialism and capitalism and homophobia and transphobia. Um, yeah, it was kind of a traumatizing work experience, but it did further cement my beliefs.
Interviewer: And how long were you working there?
Participant: I would say a year and a half. And I don't think, I don't think now that position exists anymore. Because I think I was very young, and I don't think I should have been placed in that kind of role without training. I don't think I had enough training for that.
Interviewer: Because you were just doing like research on like policy stuff or just like campaigns around anti-trans, anti-abortion rhetoric?
Participant: It was that, but it was also like going onto their social media pages and like record –
Interviewer: That's what you said yeah.
Participant: Yeah.
Interviewer: The like oppositional research basically?
Participant: Yeah yeah.
Interviewer: Yeah that's really tough that's a really tough thing to do. And did you get any support during that time too? Like emotional support?
Participant: I think the organization tried, but I have yet to see a non-profit that does that well.
Interviewer: Yeah.
Participant: Yeah. Unfortunately. I think it's just the nature of non-profits. And I think, like, that's just my viewpoint and what I've, like, experienced and heard other people experience, but nonprofits are a little too corporate to be able to adequately provide support.
Interviewer: Right. And then after that position, did you go on to work at an abortion fund or what was your journey after that?
Participant: Yeah, so I then went to work for an abortion fund in the midwest um because also I felt like that is where, and this is my opinion, I felt like at the time that was where the money really should be going. It should be direct service. Like people's access are being cut. People are still able to access, it's just harder. And so I thought… it made more sense to me, and other co-workers like expressed this as well, that like the money that we were receiving and paying for our positions should actually go to people who need it.
Interviewer: Was this after the Dobbs ruling or was this?
Participant: Mm-hmm (affirmative).
Interviewer: Okay.
Participant: Yeah. So I was at that non-profit and then Dobbs came out about like halfway through that job. And then kind of had a fallout with that organization in terms of my manager at the time, and so I was looking for other work as well.
Interviewer: This was the nonprofit, not the abortion fund. Okay.
Participant: Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Sorry. Yeah. Yeah. And so then that's when I like kind of pivoted and I was looking for more like direct service work. Because that felt more aligned with what I wanted to do and what I believed. Um, yeah, and I think also, like, I was very lucky, like, near the end of high school and then college and outside of that to, like, find a queer community and, like, people that I could talk to about my queerness and transness. Before it felt very lonely. And so abortion is still, unfortunately, a very stigmatized healthcare service for a lot of people in a lot of different communities. And so I wanted to be… if, you know, people wanted that. Because sometimes people don't and that's totally okay. But if people wanted to have a trusted person to talk to about that and to help them as they navigate getting that kind of care, I wanted to be able to be that kind of person in their life. Some people, you know, they just want a call. They want to get the support and they want to go, which I totally support. They should have access to that and they shouldn't have to like show up in a certain way to be able to get that kind of support.
>>>>[ Audio Time: 50:20 ]<<<<
Interviewer: So you applied to this abortion fund pretty much around the time you're trying to leave the nonprofit?
Participant: Yeah.
Interviewer: And when you started working there, were there other queer or trans people working at this abortion fund?
Participant: Yeah. Yeah, there were a lot, which was awesome. And it's always like kind of a concern, like when going into a workspace, like how queer-friendly people are, you know? And there at the time when I joined there were a lot of like trans masc people there too, so that was cool. Because I hadn't really made friends with a lot of like trans masc people. So that was like another… and I like made one of my like closest friends through that organization, which was great. It was another facet of my life that I didn't really explore yet at that time.
Interviewer: Which was what?
Participant: Oh like I think meeting like transmasculine people. Because when I like came out as trans I was like am I trans masc? Am I not? Like what is that experience like? Because trans is also such a huge umbrella and people have so many different experiences. And so being able to meet other people who like have similar experiences as I did was really lovely. Yeah.
Interviewer: Was it like affirming?
Participant: Yeah definitely affirming. I was also like in a completely new city. Like I didn't really know anybody out here. And so having that like access to community was I think helped me feel a lot less lonely and isolated.
Interviewer: So how was it working at the fund? What was your job then and now and how has your journey been working there?
Participant: Yeah, I've learned a lot. Learned a lot about myself as well as what it's like to work for an abortion fund. How they work, how the abortion fund ecosystem works, how people are able to access care, what the barriers still are. I've learned a lot about how to support people when they're going through potentially emotionally distressing situations or how to shift and be affirmative for people showing up in so many different ways. And I think I've gotten a community from working there too. I've met a lot of close friends there that I really trust and respect. And then also like worker organizing. You know, I've been able to learn what that's been like and what that entails. But the job also really burned me out and continues to. It's been… wanna make sure that I wrote about it a little bit. Sorry, give me one second.
Interviewer: Yeah, take your time.
Participant: Yeah, I think there are a lot of high expectations from work, especially in a nonprofit space and the contradictions of like being a support person while your organization receives money from the state and being affiliated with the state.
Interviewer: Like what are those contradictions? You want to tell me more?
Participant: Yeah. And I don't know if I fully fleshed it out yet, but when you get a city grant or a state grant, there are restrictions placed on the kind of work that you can do. So, you kind of have to come to terms with that. I think working in a non-profit space, you also need to come to terms with like, there's only so much that you can do. You know, like, I view my job very much as like harm reduction. Like it's not going to be… it's not gonna solve the abortion crisis. But it definitely can support. And I think that's where our money… personally, I think that's where our money should be going to, is directly supporting people. Everyone has different opinions on that. I think also non-profits itself are not liberatory organizations. They're also harm reduction. Sometimes they directly cause harm. I think a lot about the writings from the revolution will not be funded, and how nonprofits work in the West versus in other areas of the world. How nonprofits have kind of become like career activist positions instead of in other places of the world where people will receive a certain amount of money for a particular project and then once they're done with that project then they move on. So I don't know if I fully fleshed out that idea but I can feel it in the work that I do. The different demands that are placed on us as support coordinators, which is the role that I have. Which is mainly we're the people that actually do most of the work within the organization. So we like talk with people who call us, we help them emotionally, logistically, financially, get to their abortion care if that's what they decide they want to do. And then we also like connect them with resources in their area as well as in the Midwest. And there isn't a lot of support for us. Like we really support each other. Which is so amazing and lovely and I'm so grateful to be in like a team that does that. And also, sometimes you do hear a lot of trauma. And secondary trauma is definitely a thing. It's definitely prevalent. I don't think we receive enough trainings around that. Not until like I was like, I've been in this position for about two years. So not until like my second year did I really start getting training around that. And I think that really should be onboarding training with preparing people. I think that has made the burnout worse, along with the pace. I think a lot of support coordinators view it as like, yeah, this is harm reduction. We are doing as much as we can, but it's also really important that we're sustainable. Whereas I think the leaders of our nonprofit, as well as, unfortunately, I think a lot of leaders, operate from a white supremacist standpoint. And I don't think they would say it that way, but it is giving a saviorism complex in that they feel like they need to take every call, that they need to make sure everybody is able to access abortion. And of course we want that. Like that is the ultimate goal is that people are able to make decisions for their life. And also we have limited resources. And I think it's more important that we think about like where can those resources go to impact people and fully support people where they're at, while recognizing like what we can't do. And I think that those kind of pressures… yeah, sorry, I'm like talking in circles. But I think going back… we're bringing back… that pressure really does make burnout more prevalent. Because you feel like not only are you sometimes talking with people who are going through very emotionally distressing situations and having to stay grounded in that way, you also have to really fight to make sure that you are not overwhelmed at work from management. So I've just learned how to set boundaries within my own workplace and how to advocate for myself in a way that is fair but also is firm.
>>>>[ Audio Time: 60:09 ]<<<<
Interviewer: Yeah, you mentioned organizing in your workplace. Do you wanna tell me more about what that means for you at the abortion fund? And what, yeah, what that looks like?
Participant: Yeah, I think we've like… so organizing I think means creating relationships with people on your level that are grounded in trust and reciprocity and like similar political values. I don't think we have to be the same, but I do think protecting each other, making sure our work is sustainable, emotionally supporting each other, like those are all important parts of organizing. I think we have done a good job of showing up as a united team with management, and letting them know that we have opinions that are very grounded in our own experiences doing the bulk of the work that the organization is touting. And that we want to be heard and listened to, that we have a lot to give to this organization. So while we may not have concrete public wins yet, which I'm hoping like comes in the future, and I do have faith around that, I think we have been slowly changing the culture of the organization and making sure that people who are joining our team understand the relationships that are existing already and the tensions that may be there. Let me know if you want me to go into more detail though.
Interviewer: I mean, I also don't want to ask you questions that you don't want to share publicly either, but like how big is this organization? Like how many people work in this… like roughly your estimation. Like is it a pretty big abortion fund?
Participant: I think compared to other abortion funds it is. So it's like around 30 people. When we started it was, when I started it was probably like half. So they're also rapidly growing.
Interviewer: Yeah, cause what are the abortion legislation or abortion rights in that area where this fund is located?
Participant: Yeah. So, it is like a place where a lot of people go for abortion care, especially in the north.
Interviewer: Outside of the area?
Participant: Mm-hmm.
Interviewer: Okay.
Participant: Yeah. Especially out of the south. And so, we do receive a really high call load. And then we have gotten a lot of like state grants. So we do have resources to support people. Yeah. And so that, you know, that… I'm so glad that we are able to do that. And I think it is important work. And also that is a lot of pressure to put on people, especially on a staff that is often pretty small. And so we've really had to advocate for more people to be hired and having our time off respected and being able to say when we've hit capacity in terms of how many calls we take.
Interviewer: Yeah, because how many, like, what is, what is your workday look like as a support coordinator?
Participant: Taking calls.
Interviewer: Yeah, I decided to try not to ask that question.
Participant: Yeah, no, I mean, it's mainly taking calls. I think like there was that one point where they were like, oh, yeah, like, we want you to be involved in these different aspects of our work, like the policy side, if you want to, or the communications. But like, we just don't don't have time to do that. Like it is taking calls. And so I do feel like I've learned a lot about how to be a good case manager and how to meet people where they're at and like be affirmative. And also I… yeah I don't have that much experience in other departments. Like I don't think I have been able to grow in this organization in that way. For me, it doesn't matter as much because that's not really what I wanna do. I don't know if I really wanna stay in a non-profit space. But I know for other people who have wanted to do that, like that just isn't really a possibility. It used to be our call load, when we were a smaller team, it's like 30 calls a week, maybe more. I had a coworker who isn't there anymore, but they took like, there was a period where they took like 40 to 50 calls. Like it was insane. And so now more people have been hired and we've also like fought for a service area to be put in place. So we're not taking every single call, but only calls that like, where people are accessing care in our area. And that has really helped. But also, with the changing political landscape and how government programs are being slashed and inflation is on the rise and unemployment is also on the rise, like people have less resources, period. So they have less resources for a healthcare service that may have come up unexpectedly. For a lot of people, especially people accessing our care, it was not expected. So they don't just have like $700 laying around. Because like most abortion, like just a medication abortion in a clinic is like around $600. And that's not taking into account like gas. Especially if they're in the South, like having to drive. And then a hotel, most likely, food costs, childcare costs, like all that stuff really adds up. And, you know, I think the organization is trying to meet, like still meet the demand, of course. And also I have been noticing that our calls have been getting more emotionally harder, like heavier. And it's not to center myself in that, but you can tell that more people are struggling right now to make ends meet.
Interviewer: Yeah, I mean, what does that look like? Because, I know, you mentioned, like, policy and legislation stuff, like, what does that look like for y'all as, like, a non-profit too? Because there are, like, been cuts and threats of cuts to non-profits. Have y'all, like, discussed that or, like, what that looks like for the kind of support work that y'all do?
Participant: I mean, it's definitely a concern. And it's definitely what the support coordinators talk about. We aren't as involved in those discussions with the funding because our organization is still very hierarchical. And-
Interviewer: You feel like you should be in part of those discussions?
Participant: Yeah. I definitely think so. I think if we're like the ones who are actively supporting people, I think we should. But also I don't like hierarchy. So I don't think it's an effective way to organize or run an organization. That's my personal opinion though. I think it's part of white supremacy. But if you ask nonprofit leaders, they wouldn't say so. And I can understand some of the merits around having a hierarchy and making quicker decisions. But sometimes I'm like, I don't know if that's… sorry, that's like a whole nother thing. But I'm like, sometimes I don't know if the whole point is to make a really quick decision. Like, I don't know if the whole point is to move really fast. Like, yes, we would be able to support people. And yes, I understand things are changing. But also I think that is where the goals are different. I think for some people on our team, the goal is support as many people as possible. Which is totally admirable, and I totally understand that. And I would love to do that. For other people on the team, the goal is to have an organization that's sustainable, that is not gonna burn out people who are entering, and where you're able to build up skill within case managers. And fully support people who are calling, not just like supporting them with what they can. But that doesn't look as good to funders, you know. And I think that's also part of the contradiction with working in a non-profit affiliated with the state and also where most of your money is coming from funders. I think a lot of it comes from community donations, but like we've been told that we wouldn't be able to do this work unless we got these grants. You know, and yeah, it's definitely contradiction that, like, I struggle with. Um, does that answer your question?
>>>>[ Audio Time: 70:38 ]<<<<
Interviewer: I think so, yeah. Well, I was thinking, too, like, so, like, these, like, these grants are looking for, what are they, I'm forgetting the name? Like, an outcome of a certain number of people you're supporting, right, every month or whatever?
Participant: Yeah.
Interviewer: So you all have to, like, meet those numbers, even though it might not be the most quality support and care for that person, right?
Participant: Yeah, yeah. And yeah, it's like, yeah, it's where the saviorism comes in too. And you don't have to be white to like be part of that as well, like.
Interviewer: Are there a lot of white folks working at this organization?
Participant: There are more, I would say there definitely are more than before. And that's another thing too, like… and I think that's part of non-profits as well, is there's a lot of white people or mixed people that are close to whiteness, including myself. And so like, does that actually reflect the people that we are supporting? I would say no. And so I do think that's important. One, to be transparent about, but two, also perhaps there needs to be a, you know, a different makeup of the team.
Interviewer: Right. Are you all collecting like demographics of your callers and people that you support?
Participant: No, we aren't. So we wouldn't be able to pull that. And that's another thing too. Like, I wouldn't argue to do that either, because...
Interviewer: Surveillance and security, safety, yeah.
Participant: Yeah, yeah. There's already so much, and like, we try to be pretty careful about what we collect. Even though our database is secure and like scrubbed, like, you never know what's gonna happen.
Interviewer: Right, right. Yeah, it's a really becoming more and more intense like for trans abortion havers and workers… and yeah, we don't really know what this future holds. But I was gonna ask you, you mentioned something that I thought was really interesting, you said that like abortion funds are like not going to solve like the abortion crisis. And I guess I wanted to ask what do you what do you think would solve the abortion crisis? Sorry it's a big, it's a loaded question but, I don't know because I yeah… I think abortion funds do position themselves as as solving, but it's really like a band-aid solution to a really larger problem which, like you said, the contradiction that they're also part of the problem because they're getting money from the state, and the state is enacting these regulations and bans on abortion.
Participant: Yeah, and you never know what the state's gonna do, you know, like you can't really trust the state. My first answer is the end of capitalism. But like my Sagittarius placements are always very like like, looking towards the future and, like, a very big change. And I, I don't know. I'm not going to say whether or not the fall of capitalism is soon or later. I do believe it will happen in our lifetime, but I know, you know, people have differing opinions on that. It's a good question. It really is. I don't know if I have an answer. I think abortion funds can move towards a world where reproductive justice is more realized and people are able to make decisions for themselves, like fully consensual decisions, not just impacted by lack of money, not living in a safe environment, not having childcare or community support. Like actual decisions where they like feel good in their body doing so. Which isn't to say like they don't feel good in their body doing so under those conditions too, but just like where they are not impacted continually by oppression. So I think they can, depending on how they move. Some people think that changing the policies within states will support. So I know the state that I live in has very, not only permissive abortion policies, but protections for abortion, which is super important. And I know, like, supports people in being able to access that. Like, I know in the questions, you mentioned the difference between reproductive rights and reproductive justice and like laws and policies are reproductive rights. And so it can support, but then reproductive justice is like, OK, well, reproductive rights is the floor. How do we actually want to make access available? But I really think it is the fall of… it's like the disentangling of all these different oppressive systems. That's really what's going to make it possible. Because if it's… I just don't trust the state. And maybe that's a very extreme position, but I just don't trust the state to actually protect abortion, and for those rights not to slide back, given what America, like the values that it's founded upon and how it was founded, the violence. But I think public opinion would also really make a difference too. So I know like abortion funds or organizations that put a lot of effort into storytelling is really important, because even if the policies change, it will still be stigmatized unless people change their minds on how abortion is viewed.
Interviewer: Yeah, the cultural shifts.
Participant: Yeah, but I think that still is tied to capitalism. This view that capitalism is the only way to exist, and like racial capitalism and white supremacy. Like all those cultural shifts I think still need to change in order for abortion justice to be a reality.
Interviewer: Yeah, thank you. Thank you for that. I mean, I know we're getting close to the end. I wanna be cognizant of the time. Was there anything else that I maybe didn't ask you or we didn't talk about that you may wanna share?
Participant: Yeah, I think.
Interviewer: Did you write answers to these questions?
Participant: I did, yeah.
Interviewer: Thank you for prepping. You didn't have to do all that.
Participant: Yeah, it was mainly for me. Otherwise, I mean, I felt like I was rambling through this, but it would have been way worse.
Interviewer: No, you did great. You did great, yeah.
Participant: I appreciate it. Yeah, I think you were talking about safety concerns for people working in abortion care. And I think that's something that we all talk about, like within my own team is like making sure that like we're practicing safe digital surveillance. It's something that we talk about with our callers all the time as well. And I do have like safety concerns. Like I don't share where I work with my family, my extended family, because I don't know where they stand, you know? And I have a lot of like conservative family members who are very Catholic. I don't share it with strangers unless I know like what kind of political viewpoints they may have. And my partner doesn't do that either, just in case. I will say like living in this state does surprise me because after being in like a very red state, like sometimes the most unpredictable people are actually like, oh yeah, I love abortion. And I'm like, oh, that was such a nice interaction. Yeah. And I try to be very, like… I still have people in Texas who will reach out to me about abortion care. I have like a cousin who's a gynecologist and then a friend who like is in the medical healthcare, like is a medical student. And so they've had patients where they've expressed like they wanted abortion, but like it is dangerous to counsel them on that, like their options. And so they'll reach out to me to see like what kind of options are available or like what kind of resources are available. And we always do that like over signal. Like making sure that like if needed, we can delete that conversation. Yeah, so like those are like my concerns. I think I really worry about my partner who is trans in the city that we live in, even though it's like progressive. It only means so much. I think it really depends on the community that you live around. And I worry a lot about this current administration and the rise of anti-trans sentiment. Because I know things can change really fast in terms of policies. And I mean, we're seeing it right now. But also in terms of public sentiment and who is protected, who is not. Who is scapegoated. Yeah.
>>>>[ Audio Time: 82:04 ]<<<<
Interviewer: How is it for y'all going out into public spaces? I know you said you live in a blue, more liberal state, but yeah, how is your experience now going out in like public spaces, maybe versus like a couple of years ago, even before your partner was on T?
Participant: Yeah. I think because I'm closer to whiteness, I'm often feminized. So it's like easier for me to not have like uncomfortable conversations. Like if anything, they'll just like be like, sir, ma'am, you know, like it's nothing like where they're harassing me. But my partner is black and they've always been like masculinized even before they were on testosterone. And they've changed different parts of their experience, like their appearance to prevent further harassment. Which sucks. Like it really sucks and makes me scared for whenever they go out. I honestly, this might be a hot take, but I am more concerned about safety here, where I live in a city, where I interact with more people and more strangers, and you don't know… you just have more one-on-one with people, than I am when I was back in Texas. Because in the South, you kinda know what places to avoid, and you're in a car a lot of times. So there's that extra level of protection. And I've met more trans people out here. There is more community out here, which is great, but it also comes with different kind of communities that exist here as well.
Interviewer: Yeah, thanks for sharing that. Yeah, I mean, safety and security has always been an issue, but like you said, it's like a lot of anti, really everything about who we are and us, on the rise. So it is, it is a really scary moment. But maybe we could end this like on a more positive positive note. Like how, how are you sustaining and like taking care of yourself and, and your partner during this time and like kind of what's been bringing you joy?
Participant: Yeah. Yeah.
Interviewer: You're basically like, there's no joy in my life.
Participant: No joy. No, like, that is something I really have had to learn how to do. Like accept that kind of like duality of life. Like even when things are really scary, like there still can be a lot of joy. And I have anxiety. So like that does not help with like, or like it makes it harder I think sometimes to be like, okay, you have to stop ruminating about this. Like let's look at what is actually in front of us right now. But I think, like, getting into hobbies where I am able to kind of, like, move through my emotions, whether that be, like, physically, like, going on walks near the lake, or, like, baking bread, or baked goods, or, like, writing, to express myself, has been really helpful. Spending quality time with my partner and with my friends and co-workers, and also spending time not talking about work has been helpful. And also getting involved in different community events. Whether that's direct service, whether that's mutual aid, or if it's like learning a new skill, or like a teach-in, or just like connecting with other people. Yeah, I think all of that like helps me remind myself where I can find hope, and like what we're actually working towards. Like the kind of life that I wanna live, the kind of safety that I wanna build for myself as well as like for other people. And making a world where that is actually possible.
Interviewer: Beautiful. Well, thank you so much, Audrey. I think I'm gonna stop the recording now if that's okay with you. Okay.
Participant: Totally.