Chance
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Interviewer: Now, so my name is Vrindavani and we are having a conversation with Chance for the Trans Abortions Oral History Project. Today is April 18th and this conversation is taking place virtually. So Chance, you want to get started and introduce yourself, maybe like your pronouns and maybe some of your background and your childhood?
Participant: Yeah, definitely. So, as you mentioned, I'm Chance. My pronouns are they, them. And oof, my childhood. I guess, I feel like my childhood, it's so interesting because I feel like I've just had a lot of eras, I guess. And my childhood was pretty split. Like, I think of it kind of that way because I, like I was saying, you know, to you, like my mom had me when she was 14. And that was, definitely has been kind of like this defining kind of reality for me, obviously, and for my mom. But my mom's mom passed away when she was one, I believe. And so she was an only child. And my great grandma, my mom's grandma, actually raised her and took care of her. So at the point where my mom was pregnant, it was like this whole big family commotion around it because my mom was super quiet and just very to herself. And so they were all surprised, and really traumatized her. I talked to her recently about her pregnancy and how it went. And it was helpful for me in understanding that your pregnancy, parenthood, fertility journey doesn't have to look a specific way because she loves me so much that like, of course, my assumption is like, you know, she always wanted me. Like she tells me that, but she also had a really horrible, you know, pregnancy experience. A lot of it from just like emotional distress. She hid her pregnancy for a while. And so like, once my family found out, it was like… I have a really big family. Everybody wanted to get in on it. They like all sat her down. It was like a crowd of people just like, talk, talk, talk, talk, talk. How did this happen? And where did it happen? And this and that, and it's kind of like a, it's a trend. All of my grandma, my great grandma's kids had kids when they were teenagers. My grandma had my mom's mom who was the oldest when she was 16. And so it's just like this cyclical kind of, you know, pattern. But it was nice to hear her talk about it because me being like trans and thinking about like what fertility and pregnancy looks like, it was just like, oh, that's nice to know that… she was like, I felt like you were an alien. Like, it just like was hella weird to me. Like I had a phobia of pregnancy before and after that. And so that was like helpful, but I pretty much grew up with my mom and my grandma. They were super… my grandma was like an early career, or sorry, early childhood teacher. And she worked with kids with disabilities. And so she loves kids. She loved, loved, loved kids. And so for me, it's like, I grew up with my mom and I grew up with my grandma and they were so intentional about making sure I was reading and getting all of the like, just learning, learning, learning. I was just like a sponge. I learned so much. They talked to me like a person. They never talked to me in like baby talk… or I couldn't talk, say, you know, speak like that. My mom was super big on like correcting me. Like, you know, like this is what, you know this is how you say this. This is like, she didn't just let it go on and on any kind of way. So I was just like pretty ahead, like as a kid. Like I talked to adults like it was nothing and grew up around all of my mom's cousins who were 10 plus years older than me. So it was an interesting experience. Especially being an only child, but then growing up with all of my family around all of my cousins. So yeah, my mom, she went to college and I was three, I believe. And one of my earliest, earliest memories, which I think is supplemented by a video that my grandma used to have of like her high school graduation. And it's like some early like little flashes of, you know, things that I remember. But yeah, she went to college. She went to the University of Texas at Austin. My family's from Houston and she was the first person in our family to go to college. And it's so weird because everyone was so proud. But for me, like it felt like… I didn't know as much as they told me like, your mom's in college, your mom's doing this, your mom's doing that. Like, they're so proud. For me, there was such a disconnect because it was like, but why is my mom not here? You know, like, it was just like… and I became so, like, attached to my grandma. I, like, didn't, I slept in her bed every night. Like, I was attached to her. She was, like, one of my, you know, she was my comfort person, especially when my mom was gone. And so those years were just, like, very, very different than they were when I moved to Austin, when my mom graduated college. My family, I mean, we were poor. We didn't have anything. We lost everything many, many, many times in floods. A lot of it is just, I mean, just racism, discriminatory practices. We were on government assistance, government housing. And in Houston, there's floods, it's rainy as hell, there's no drainage system. And we lived like on a bayou. And like our, some of my earliest memories are like my grandma being like, go, you know, telling us like, go check the bayou. Like we would go over there and like just track the water rising because we knew like if it rained enough, it was gonna flood. And so if you're placed like in a downstairs apartments in this like section eight housing, you're just going to lose everything. And so we got lucky once and were placed in an upstairs apartment. But before that, it was just like, we have very few pictures of my mom's mom. We just lost everything. And it just felt like, thinking about it, I'm like, that's just an erasure of your history and a whole part of your life. And so that was just, like, my earliest memories were marked by that, but it also, like, I didn't feel unsafe. Now, I just, like, had faith that the grown-ups around me were going to keep me safe. But, like, I saw some pretty crazy things. Like, I saw someone die, like, who was shot. Like, there were constant drive-bys and stuff like that. And, like, any loud noises still, I, like, think I'm, you know, need to drop to the ground and stuff like that. And I remember like early, early on when I moved to Austin, I had like a therapist and she asked me, like I… being, it felt like… I tell people it felt like being Orphan Annie. Like when my mom, when I got to move with her, it was just a whole… we weren't doing great, you know, like she didn't have a car. We didn't have like all these things. But to not be living in like with 12 other people sleeping on the floor, like you know not knowing what's gonna happen day to day, it was just like a huge change. And being there with my mom, like I always felt guilty like feeling like, oh, I'm supposed to be happy. Like I'm supposed to be… you know but I miss my grandma like to my core. Like I had a like… at first, I was just so sad. I was just like… she actually ended up moving to Austin, partly because, well, one of my cousins was selling drugs out of her apartment, and she was going to get kicked out, so she had to move. But also, I was having such a hard time that, you know, it made sense. So she came out there. But I remember talking to like a therapist or like a counselor in school and talking to her, and I always remember that she told me like, you know, it's okay to feel sad, it's okay to like be proud that your mom did all of these things. But also your mom was gone. Like that's a reality. Those things happened at the same time. And also the reason that you're feeling all of these feelings and they don't go away is because those are your formative years. One through six are like when you, that… those years really determine like your anxiety levels. Like a lot of, you know, like your mind, the way you think. Like there's PTSD, like I'm neurodivergent. It was just like, those are the times that really feed how like your relationship structures and different stuff like that. And so, yeah, it was like weird. It was just really weird. And I would, for a lot of summers, I would go home to Houston to be with my family and like be around everyone. Cause then I was like an only child by myself with my mom. It's like going from 50 people around you to one. So I felt very like different, kind of just like isolated. But also we couldn't live like around my family. It was like you kind of had to get away from it to really do something else. Like you had to just be exposed to something else to know that there was something else out there for you. I don't know how my mom did it. Like I literally… the pattern is you just stay and you just, you know, do your thing and people fall into like drugs and different stuff because that's the environment. So yeah, it was kind of split. But I went to, like I told you, I went to an all-girls school for middle school. And my mom talks about like, after I started my period, like in elementary school, I was a whole different person. And now we know like I have PMDD, like I had a lot of stuff going on. And I was just like maturing before everyone else I knew. And like, it's like, why do I have acne? Why do I have this? Why do I have that? And so I had a hard time until I started going to this school. Like in seventh grade I went and it was just like all… automatically, it was just like, I was accepted there. And my class only had like 80 people, 80, 90 people maybe. And so we all grew up together. Like we went through middle school, we went through high school, we did all this stuff. And it wasn't just like a, it wasn't a private school, but it wasn't like… we weren't, we could learn outside of just like learning to test. That was the whole thing. Like we didn't have books. I don't know what we did, but we didn't have books. We like did projects. They were really intentional. Like we wore uniforms so that there was no sense of like anyone's better than anybody. They were pretty strict about that. Like we didn't, I didn't sit in desks until college because they were like, we're going to sit at tables because you have to learn to like share space with people. Like we had this whole mission statement. It kind of was a cult, low key, but the whole thing was-
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Interviewer: Like Montessori school, kind of like a Montessori school?
Participant: Kind of, yeah. And I am so grateful because I couldn't have, I wouldn't have made it anywhere else because I just was different. Like I just didn't learn in a very like narrow way. So it's like fed a lot of creativity. Like we just kind of got to be and like just grow up. There was no like distraction of, you know, I have a lot of feelings about single sex education and single sex space, like all of these things now, but I can't take away the like, that was the reason that I'm here. Like, that's the reason I went to college. Like, that's the reason I had a lot of experiences. Like, college wasn't really… my mom told me, like, you went to the high, like, movie version of, like, high school and middle school. Like, college ain't about to be what college was for me. And it wasn't, because I did all the things. I made lifelong friends, like, had incredible experiences. And so that was pretty much, like, where it left me. And it felt like when I graduated, I just had to start over away from people that I knew. So that's pretty much, yeah, the gist of it.
Interviewer: Yeah. And so you lived with your mom in Texas then when you were going through your middle school and high school years? And this is also, was there like a time during this time that you were also coming into yourself with like your gender and your sexuality during this time? Or was that like later on?
Participant: That was later on. I think I had a lot of… I was allowed to just be me. And so like, there are a lot of signs of like my queerness and like gender queerness. Like my mom tells me like, since I, you know, could remember, like I got a bunch of dolls all the time and obviously these things aren't gendered, whatever, but they were based on how, you know, why it was presented to me. And I cut the hair off of all of them. Like, everybody's dolls was messed up. Everybody, ain't nobody's dolls was safe. Everybody's shit was messed up. So, and I was like, I was trying to convince her that I was like, that I was Spider-Man. Like, I loved a lot of things that were like traditionally like feminine or that, you know, was pushed on me. But it was like, for me, just, I didn't have a sense of, I'm a girl, I'm this, I'm that. Like, it was just, this is what is. So, I mean, in middle school and high school, it was like everything was young women leaders and young women in STEM and this and that, and it was just like a label to take on. And my queerness, like my transness, I swear I didn't know anything. A lot of people like were like, you're, you know, some, you know, but it just never came into play. I wasn't like sexually interested in anybody when I was in middle and high school. I didn't really do anything but go to school. Like I was just a very to myself person. Like I wasn't the type that… I didn't wanna learn to drive. I was very just like dragging my feet through life until really like, probably when I decided to go to grad school. That's why I say like, it felt like I did something that I like intentionally wanted to do and made a decision for myself. And especially, you know, decided to study gender and knowing that I've always been so interested. Like in middle school, I was like watching videos about trans people and like queerness and just really interested in the culture and just understanding people. But that's just because I always will gravitate towards difference. Like I don't, these structures, like I didn't understand why, but now I'm like, I don't understand this script that y'all are living off of. Why? I don't, I just, as a kid, it was just like, why, why, why, why do I have to do that? And I got in a lot of trouble with adults who like didn't want me to, didn't want to give me that space like my mom did and my grandma did. So it was just, you know, but I didn't have a sense that like I was… I knew I was different than people, But a lot of that was because of like my hyper fixations, like my… like I was, when I tell you I love dance, I'm a dancer, <inaudible 16:32>, and I was self-taught. Like I learned from like Michael and Janet Jackson. Like that was like peak for me. And so I like learned all the dances. Like when I talked to my mom about it now, like did I ever, ever, ever try to like emulate a woman dancer, like super, you know, feminine choreography? She was like, no, never that. So it was like, there was a sense of it, but also a lot of it was praised. Like my masculinity was praised in a lot of ways. Like I played sports when I was younger. And when I went through puberty, I was like the tallest person all of a sudden. Cause I just went through puberty before everybody. And then cut to middle school and I'm like the shortest person. And that came with like a lot more responsibility on my like little basketball team and like all of that. But yeah, my coaches, everybody was just like, you must go get this, like that. I think a lot of it was also fetishization, but at the time it was just like, I don't know, this is just how I am. Like, it's really genetic, but I got a lot of like praise for embodying masculinity in that way. But it also was like, I cosplayed a girl so good. Like, everyone's like, you know, like, what do you mean? Like, you could put the makeup on, you could do this, do that. Like, I didn't feel any type of way about it. It was just like, that's what I'm supposed to do. And if I'm going to do it, I'm going to do it well. That's how I felt. So it was kind of mixed.
Interviewer: So both your mom and your grandma really allowed you to be who you are and didn't really try to, like, put you in a box or any types of boxes, then, it sounded like?
Participant: Yeah, no, definitely. Like my grandma, she didn't care what I was into. She was just like, that's Chancy. They're doing their thing, pretty much. So yeah, there was a lot of space to just kind of explore and be in.
Interviewer: And you mentioned in middle school about learning about the trans or queer community. Was that your first introduction to the trans community, was in middle school?
Participant: Yeah, pretty much. I mean, I don't even know. I remember like watching videos like about, well, I guess the videos and like the show, like I Am Jazz came out probably when I was like closer to like high school, but I watched like… I love documentaries. I love just like learning, I've always been that way. And so on YouTube, it was just like, you know, unlimited just like access to people, different types of people. So I don't know who the first folks that I like knew. I think Gigi Gorgeous, I remember like really vividly like watching her videos and like her partner who is also trans and seeing like their relationship. But yeah, I was just like fascinated by any people who just were outside the status quo. It was just like, oh, you get to create who you are. That's cool, you know, so.
Interviewer: Right, and so you said it wasn't until like grad school that you started identifying like as not cis, or maybe you started learning about cisgender later on.
Participant: Yeah, I mean… so I was learning more about like just the LGBTQ community, like in high school, like near the end of high school. And one of my best friends who's like my best friend now, I've known her since we were, shit, like 12, or 11. We met, at like, orientation, seventh grade. That's how long we've been locked in. But we used to, like, have so many conversations about, like, trans and LGBTQ people, and, like, she was super interested in just, like, an <inaudible 20:24>, an accomplice. She ride or die for it. She don't play. And so we used to, like, talk about it, but pretty much college is, like, when I even just started thinking about forming relationships. And in the first two years, I was like, so like, it was like a really big adjustment for me, like being away from my mom and like being away from all the people that I grew up with. Like it was hard as hell. And I wasn't excited. I wasn't. I just, like, I was just like, this is the thing I'm supposed to do. That's the whole reason I went to like that school. Everything, 100% of people at my school get accepted to college. It was like, that's just what it is. Going to college, you know, it's a whole different thing, but like, you know, the school was still good for me. It was really, it was a small school.
Interviewer: It was outside of Texas?
Participant: No, it was the same thing, an hour from where I stayed in Austin, so.
Interviewer: Oh, so it wasn't far from your family, okay.
Participant: No, it wasn't, but I pretty much like… for the first probably like three months, I didn't go home, because I knew if I went home, I wasn't coming back. And for like that whole year, probably a year and a half, every time I went home, whenever I would leave, I would just be a crying, scattered mess. And I still felt the same, like even later on. But that's when I like started exploring more. I like majored in political science, but I took so many like sociology, anthropology, like sexuality classes. In like my junior year, I started dating a friend of mine who's also trans, which is so funny. But I didn't really come out. My mom knew him and everything and liked him a lot. And we were just close. We roomed together on our study abroad. He randomly asked me, and I was like, I was <inaudible 22:24>. Like, it was like an odd number of people, and I was like, I don't even want to do that. But we did. And like, yeah, we ended up dating, like, maybe a year later. And so that was like my first time exploring, like, my sexuality. But it was also like, I hadn't dated at all. I hadn't, like, I was, I hadn't had sex with nobody. Like I was just, but I wasn't like super reserved. Like I was a sexual person, but just not super outwardly I guess. And I remember like saying like early on in college like to my therapist who I had like most of college, like, oh, I you know she was like, do you think about like dating or know forming relationships and stuff? And I was like I just don't have the energy. Like I just I really need to like figure my own shit out. And like my anxiety and everything to like it's just so bad to where I don't think I would be good for anybody anyway. So that was like my mindset. And then I started dating him and it was like a whole different situation, a whole different thing. But yeah, I started thinking about my gender and stuff like during lockdown, which I think was the case for a lot of people, like just getting away and having time to think about who I am outside of expectations. You know, it was like, oh, okay, I can just kind of be. And I think I started using they, them pronouns like around that time, like 2021 or something. And I told my mom. And she she had a hard time I think because like growing up she would tell people like she all she wanted was a daughter. Like that's it. Like she didn't care about nothing else. Like people ask her you know what she wanted, did she want to get married? And she was like, literally just for the purposes of having a kid. She was like, I'll marry him, have a kid, and divorce him and take the kid. That was like what she said as a child. And it's like, indicative of the environment she was growing up in. There were no successful relationships, partnerships. She didn't have her dad in her life, her mom had passed. Like it was just like, you know, so for her it was like, dang, am I losing that? Like, am I going to lose this bond? And that lasted like two <inaudible 24:50>. And I was sad. I was kind of hurt by it. But I remember when I talked to her about it, like again, because she was already going through a lot. Like her dad was dying. And she even had the forethought to be like, we probably shouldn't talk about this now, because I want to give it my attention and be mentally present. But we ended up having the conversation anyway. And that's kind of where it went. And she was just… like, I remember I wanted to start binding. And I was like, I don't want to dress certain ways. Like I'm just not feeling it. And she was very much like, well, it's lockdown. Nobody feel like dressing no time. I don't feel like putting on a bra. So for her, it was just like, shit, me either. But, you know, and I think for her, it was like, I don't want you to feel like you have to be anybody for anything. And it's funny because I found this voice recording. I'm glad I have those. I always have recorded moments or wanting a snapshot in time. And I have one where I talk about how I see my gender. And I was like, if I'm, if I'm, you know, I get saying what my mom is saying about like, there's not one way to be a woman. Like you can be a woman and not like dresses, you can be a woman and not like getting your nails done and not getting, you know, those things, and not shaving that type of stuff. And I said in the recording, like, but if I'm everything… or what did I say? Like, if I'm only a woman in name, like, why can't I create something else for myself? Like, what's the, you know, I get to choose, I do. I don't think I chose who I am and everything, but in that moment, it was like, I can choose to, you know, identify that way. I can choose to use they, them pronouns and identify as a woman, but I'm not. And that's like where it came to. And the next conversation we had about it… like we had gone on a family vacation and it was like the first time our family has been able to do that. And I'm glad we did because my grandma passed that year in December like before Christmas. And so I remember we were getting our makeup done like all the girls were getting their makeup done and mom was like do you want you know like how do you feel… and I was like I'll just do it I'll deal with it. And I liked how I looked. I had my little suit jacket with a corset on. Very risqué. And, you know, my family was supportive and stuff. But they didn't know, like, how I felt about my gender and stuff, only my mom. And she wasn't wanting to, like, be super, like, I don't know, she wasn't really coming around to it for real. Like, it just, she didn't even have the space to, you know, just a lot of grief, a lot of stuff going on. And so, like, after that, she was, like, I wish I had been, like, more supportive and, like, asked you, like, you know, been more supportive in that moment where you were kind of debating whether or not you wanted to do it. Like, wear makeup and, you know, present in that way and be doing all the things the girls and the women are doing. And so we talked about it, and I was like, I mean, I just feel like, you know, you've always said that I can just be myself, and this is me, like, I'm no different than I've always been, like, this is the person you raised. I'm not, there's nothing that's going to change. And we have matching tattoos, you can't really see it, but it says, do you, because that was her parenting motto, like, do you. You know, and so I was like, why did we get these tattoos? Like I'm just being me. And after that, it like clicked for her. It was just like, I got it. Like, there's no need to explain anything else. Like, she just, she didn't like the feeling of like feeling like she heard me or something. Like she's never really done that ever. So, you know, lucky to have her for sure. And to just have space to kind of explore.
Interviewer: Yeah, you have a very deep connection with your mom. And that's so heartwarming to hear.
Participant: Yeah.
Interviewer: Yeah. And so all this was happening when you were in grad school then during lockdown when you were exploring?
Participant: Oh, no.
Interviewer: Oh, OK.
Participant: I was in undergrad. I was like those unfortunate girlies who my last semester was that when we went into lockdown. So really, it was like then when I got to just like be and it was also… I mean, it was like we didn't know if the world would be the world. We didn't know what was gonna happen, if we were gonna survive, whatever. You know still like we don't know. So I think I just, as hard as it was and like isolating, it was also just like… I didn't know how I was even gonna make it coming back from spring break. Like I just knew I'll be going back to like a lot of anxiety, having to figure a lot of stuff out, like figure out what I'm gonna do next. Like it just felt like I really actually needed to slow down. And it sucks that like it took that and that it takes that type of stuff for us to be able to sit our ass down if we're lucky. But it was like that's when I really got to just be like, oh, if there are no eyes on me how do I feel, like about myself? How do I see myself? Like so yeah it was happening then. And then when I decided to to go to grad school, I was going to study like sociology and then I applied on a whim to this like gender studies program that I kind of fell in love with. And it felt like, I feel like an experiment and a constant like learning process in myself, like being who I am, like how I interact with the world, not understanding these systems, but constantly being subjected to them. Like looking like this and having people perceive me very different. Like it's like a constant, like, oh, I'm learning more and more about gender and this construct and how central it is to our lives because I'm experiencing it constantly. And that's not something you can just like learn and just like read about, like this is not. So it felt like I made a decision for myself. And I've learned so much more about myself through my studies, like that's been really cool.
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Interviewer: Yeah, and that, so that was like, so you said an undergrad, you started really understanding your gender. But this is also with that partner too at the time. Were you exploring your gender identity or it was like just also exploring like your sexuality?
Participant: I think it's funny, cause now when I look back at relationships, like, it sucks, because I think I started, I started seeing my… like putting labels on myself and started seeing, based on how other people perceive me. Like, and that's been like a learning process to undo. Because I think my ex, like, he, he had a lot of expectations going in. Like, he thought I was like, like, super like docile, like, you know, inexperienced… like, docile probably isn't the word, but just like inexperienced. Like he really thought he was going to teach me something, and there was nothing to teach me. Like I had a better grasp of like pleasure and sex and all that stuff because… just because I wasn't having sex doesn't mean I wasn't a sexual person. Like I had a healthy sexual appetite. I like masturbated. I did stuff for myself, like I didn't… like I know my body well enough to like not need somebody else to do anything and not want to teach anybody how to, you know, do anything. So I think he felt kind of almost like emasculated and it was like he had to kind of, it feels like he wanted to fulfill a role and then I didn't live up to like the other role in the equation. And so it almost felt like he didn't know where to place my energy. Like I wasn't a super feminine person but I also wasn't a super masculine person. But like the way I moved and like stuff, it just wasn't super feminine. And so it felt like almost, he felt like he had to compensate and be more feminine, but that wasn't him either. So it was just… there was a lot of like wanting to mold and shape me for him to feel more comfortable in me. And I was willing to do that because it was like, I don't know what, you know, relationships supposed to look like. And I had a lot of self-esteem issues and like was constantly questioning myself. And I respected him. Like I was like, he's doing the things that I'm supposed to do. Like I'm supposed to have enough capacity to like be in all the clubs and do all these things. And I got the sense that I was doing it wrong if I wasn't showing up that way. And he kind of reinforced that. So it was like, damn. But I think I was exploring my gender without me like knowing, pretty much. The sexuality stuff, I hadn't dated. Like I hadn't like had sex I hadn't… men weren't really on my radar. I didn't go to school with them. And then once I got there it was like what was I missing out on girl? This ain't giving <inaudible 34:30> them girls and black girls, I mean these men here, I was like, for you to think you're so much better is wild to <inaudible 34:39> I said not you don't know anything you're talking with all the confidence and saying nothing. Oh that's so embarrassing. So I was like, man, it's not worth it. And then I met him and it was like, okay, maybe, you know, relationships they're talking about something. But it's definitely like a fun time to be exploring, honestly.
Interviewer: Yeah and then at in grad school were there other like cis men in your program or at your school?
Participant: I don't think there were. In my program? No, like it was applied gender studies and it was like… actually it might have been all fems. It was at least all fems but I'm pretty sure it was like all cis women actually.
Interviewer: Were you the only trans person in your cohort?
Participant: No, I wasn't the only trans person. I think I was the only trans masc person. And by that I mean, like… I, there were people who, like, used she, they pronouns, they, she pronouns, and they're trans. They just didn't… like, they're not on T or whatever. So trans people, they just weren't, like, masculine presenting people. Like, my experience was just, like, very different, I think. And there weren't that many, were there any Black men? Might not have been no Blacks. I don't know, now that I think about it. So it was just like also coming into myself and embodying like what looks like black masculinity was just like very, very different.
Interviewer: Because you're all by yourself.
Participant: Yeah, and I think there was like a spectacle around it like sometimes. Honestly more so from professors which is a whole thing. But um yeah so I think I was only I was only… masculine presenting person for sure.
Interviewer: Did you, were you able to find community in grad school? Not with just like trans folks but with like a Black community in grad school?
Participant: I didn't really start like seek it out, that's my thing. Like I, yeah, I had like a couple of friends but I didn't really like go to stuff. I didn't… like it was just a transition time and then I had a really hard time. Like my last year or so, like all of 2023 was just like a hard, hard time. And those were like my last two semesters, like spring and fall. And so I just… I'm just like a very solitary person anyway and I think I really went into like myself. So community, like I kept in touch like with people from home and stuff, but I think I'm just not the type of, I don't really, I'm not the type of person to seek friends out, honestly. Like I just don't, I've never. Like I've always felt really overwhelmed having like more and more people in my life. Cause I want to be intentional about showing up for people. And so it always feels like, how do I maintain this? I don't have like more to give of myself sometimes. But also I've learned lately, like, but that's not the only reason… like community isn't transactional. Like I don't have to have something like 100% to bring to the table all the time to like, deserve community. So that's been like a lesson as of late. But yeah, in grad school, I was very to myself. I mean, and the people weren't nothing to be interested. I talked to my professors a lot. That's usually how I am. Like I would stay and chat with my professors. They were cool, like mentors. I talked to them a lot. But actually I made friends like all my professors, so maybe that was my community. And they were pretty much like, I don't think… academia ain't gonna be for you girl because the way you think is just too different and I don't think you would want to do it. So that was cool, but. To myself, with my partner, Ms. Kat.
Interviewer: So did you like transition during grad school then? Or was that like the time, cause you said you were exploring your gender in undergrad and also your sexuality, but it was being introduced to gender studies in gender studies and learning more about the social construction of gender that you said you really kind of came into yourself?
Participant: Yeah, pretty… I mean, well, I would say like my last, like I studied political science, like I said, but I took, I wanted to take as many sociology classes as possible. So I like, I took history of sexuality. I took a class called gender transgressions, which really opened my eyes like a lot. And I got to write about a lot of these kind of constructs in ways that I hadn't really been able to. I read a lot of material that I hadn't read and got introduced to a lot of writers and thinkers that I was like, I'm not, I'm unique in my personal experience, but it's nice to know you're not alone in the way you think. And to be validated and see it written out and see other people's experiences. So I was kind of doing that a bit in college. I just didn't think it applied to me. So, and I would call, I would question, like I was, even when I was on my study abroad, like with my ex, like I remember, like, he was like, you're gay, you're gay. And I was like, y'all can't tell me who I am, man. That's crazy. Like, I haven't, that's not… and I was like, am I gay? Do I want to be with women? Like, is that something I want? And it was just like, I couldn't… and now I know, like, I'm neurodivergent and like my thought processes were so like… as much as I learned, it was like, applying it to myself and really questioning wasn't really… even when I did question, it was like, but it's ingrained in me that, not even that I have to be a certain way, but like, it is, you know? Like there is that expectation that you'll be in like a heterosexual relationship, that you'll be cis. And so coming from that assumption, it was really hard to like break out of it and like really consider what I wanted. And I think a lot of it was like a choice initially. Like, I think who I am isn't a choice, but it felt like a lot of agency in choosing to step out of like heterosexuality. Like, I was just like, hmm, I mean, I like this person. Like, why not? What am I… I ain't checking for nobody else. So, you know, I started like T October 2021. So it was like I graduated May 22. Oh, yeah, May 2020. graduated undergrad. And so I really… yeah, I started exploring like during lockdown and just like kept kind of, you know, thinking through it. And then pretty much after, like, I talked to my mom, and like, she was kind of more comfortable, I guess with it. Like, she was still kind of like, you're gonna go on, are you sure about the T? Like she wanted to make sure I was like making you know like decision that I wanted. And really not because like I think I have to look a certain way. And so I started, yeah, around then. And then I started grad school in August 2022. So it was like following year. So I had almost been like a year on T and I was already seeing like certain changes that I appreciated. I feel like I hadn't felt more like myself. I felt more like myself than ever, I should say.
>>>>[ Audio Time: 42:36 ]<<<<
Interviewer: I was going to ask you, what was that thought process of making that decision of going on T? What were your expectations, or your desires, or your wants, and your gender, and your present representation of yourself?
Participant: I mean, I had watched like, I mean, I'm a researcher at heart, you know, so I watched like hella videos and it was, it was kind of like difficult because I couldn't, what I wanted was like a sneak peek of the future, like, what is it going to be? Like they can't tell me. So it felt like I was creating my life literally, like I, I'm taking a leap of faith. I don't know. Like they can't tell you exactly what will happen, but the things that I didn't want, those things didn't outweigh the things that I did want. I wanted facial hair more than anything. I wanted my voice to be deeper. But it was also like I was kind of just open to the journey. I was so excited. That was pretty much most of it. And I didn't know what it would be. So the thought process was just like, I don't know, let's see. And if I don't want to do it, I can stop doing it. But yeah, that first year was just euphoric. I was just like, dang, I'm out here doing it. I decided to go to grad school. I had to do that shit by myself. I had to study for the GRE and do all that shit. That felt extracurricular. That felt like it's not something I have to do, or I feel I have to do. I'm choosing to do this thing. It was a big thing. Like that was a big leap, moving from Austin to California. My partner and I moved. We hadn't even been together a year. But we moved.
Interviewer: Oh, you met your partner in Texas.
Participant: Yeah.
Interviewer: Yeah, we haven't even talked about that yet, but yeah.
Participant: Yeah, gay, just gay. And we moved and that was really cool. And yeah, we were just like taking some leaps like pretty much. So I had started exploring before that, but by the time, yeah, I was grad school, I had been on it for almost a year. So yeah, I was just in a different like headspace, I feel like than I am now. But yeah, it's cool.
Interviewer: Yeah, I appreciate you sharing all this. And I remember you posted something on your social media recently about your life. It was like a tweet or something about the cisgender of the brain, of talking about neurotypical people, and that clicked so much for me. I was just like, that's exactly what it is, cisgender of the brain, of being neurotypical.
Participant: MSO.
Interviewer: Yeah. So I guess you're talking so much about your neurodivergence, and it sounds like that's something that's, not more connected to, but really impacts how you move through the world.
Participant: Yeah, definitely. I mean, and I'm learning more and more every day about it. I think going undiagnosed, like, it does a lot of, there's so much grief. Like there was, I think I was just so sad for a while, like, so sad for like my younger self, like, just feels like, damn, like, I go through a lot of the same stuff now. But I don't have to hate myself because of it. Like, I don't have to blame myself for the difficulties. I can look around and say, like, ultimately disabled people, we're not disabled. Like, the world is disabling. That's what my therapist told me once. Like, we're not, there's nothing wrong with us. Like, we're being held to a standard that doesn't exist. What does neurotypical mean? I don't know what people whose brains are typical looks like. It's capitalism. Like, it's how well can you serve the system, you know? What is your capacity for contributing in this very particular way? Instead of we all have different things that we can contribute and we can make space for that. So yeah, it's like, I know like as I learned more about… I got diagnosed with ADHD like officially when I was in Austin. And yeah, it's just like, I've been the same. Like my mom had to take a survey, my partner took a survey, and then I did like a self evaluation thing. And my mom, like I was diagnosed with combined type ADHD, so like hyperactive and was inattentive. And when my mom filled it out, it was like, you need at least six, I think, of the nine characteristics for each, like hyperactive and inattentive. And my mom put like eight in one and nine in the other. And that lady, when I told her about it, she was like, ADHD, when I think ADHD, I just don't think of you. And then she promptly put that, and she was like, oh, mm-hmm, so you must have that, because-
Interviewer: You're winning, you're winning.
Participant: Everybody's <inaudible 47:29> a perfect score. And so that one felt like, I remember feeling like really just sad, like not… yeah, just like it was hard. Like it felt like my life was just like harder and always has been harder. But then my therapist like was telling me more about like autism and different stuff, but my brain is so literal in thinking. And this is also why I think I didn't think I was queer and I didn't think I was trans. Like, I'm just a very, like, if it doesn't show up this way, it's kind of, it's like a mindfuck. Cause it's like, I live so outside of these constructs, like my… I exist so much outside of them, but it's so ingrained and we're all swimming in it. And my neurodivergence is like, I needed to adopt and adapt and mask so much in order to feel comfortable moving through the world. And I still didn't, I still was <inaudible 48:23>. They knew like, and it was like for better or worse, but yeah, it was like, this is how it's supposed to be. This is what it would look like. Like, I don't feel this way about myself. I don't feel that way, so it must not be. And then I took like this evaluation that my therapist sent me and like, you know, self-diagnosis, all the things. And it came back and it was like real high, real high on the spit, you know, pretty much. Like a lot of the characteristics, you know. They can't really tell you about this, but it's like, do you have these autistic traits? A lot of people do, but if you have this many on this many like evaluations, then yeah, girl, it's you. And honestly, I think my mom has it too. She didn't take the thing. I was like, girl, you got <inaudible 49:08>. That's okay. But it definitely like opened my eyes to like, okay, I just don't even think in these ways. And so of course I view myself differently, of course I never understood racism. For what? What do you hate somebody for? What is homophobia, what is transphobia for? Like I feel like I spent so much time trying to understand it, like just being like, okay what's happening here? And I came to the conclusion like, oh y'all just hate difference. And I, you know, it makes sense. Like we don't fit into the… it's not easy. You you can't pin me down. Even now like I look like this but people know I'm not a man for the most part. Men don't because they you know they act how they act. And they be hitting on me at the gym and I'll be like that's wild that's different. But it's like most people don't know where to like place my energy. Like no matter what I look like, it's like, hmm, a bit of confusion.
Interviewer: Right. I feel like you told me before that you don't want to be perceived as like this. I mean, you don't want to be perceived. Sorry.
>>>>[ Audio Time: 50:23 ]<<<<
Participant: No, yeah. I mean, and I think a lot of it is like, I have so much anxiety and about just like living up to so-called expectations. And it's just eating grain. Like I was saying, like, there are expectations placed on you from the moment that the doctor says, you know, oh, it's a girl, it's a boy. Like, all of a sudden, that's supposed to determine who you are, how you act, type of relationship structures you form. Like, it's a lot of, since I was a kid, like, my mom would tell you, like, I had such a hard time with, like, changes, you know, transitions. Like I started school, I like was dragging my feet. Like I learned so much and I loved it but also it came with expectation and I didn't know how to like handle like the fear of failure. Even as a kid, it was like everything's just so hard and all I'm doing is just learning to color in the lines. But it was like that comes with, this is the assignment, do the thing, you know. And sometimes my brain doesn't really work that way or I have like decision paralysis or it's really hard for me to get myself to do something that I can do that I'm capable of but I'm so afraid to fail that like I can't even get myself to start. And I still, I deal with that with work. Like I deal with you know procrastination like just a lot of the same stuff. But I just know how to better manage it. That's really what it was. But it just takes a lot of unlearning. Like going through the world and thinking like, oh, I'm just inadequate at all these things. Like I just don't do any of this right. Like I'm just I'm doing… I'm failing at life is what I felt like for so long. And these diagnoses like really affirm like, oh, it's it's not… it makes sense that I feel this way like. And that sucks but it's also okay to not live up to these standards because who who determines that, you know?
Interviewer: Right, yeah. Yeah, I appreciate you saying like, what is neurotypical, because it's also like, what does cisgender mean too?
Participant: None of y'all are cis, like what? All the time, gender transgressions abound, they're everywhere, hello?
Interviewer: Right, no one can actually fit into that mold of being cisgender, like no one actually fits that.
Participant: Yeah. Especially it's racialized, it's classed. Like, I tell the girls all the time, the black women, like not being accepted in those spaces. I'm like, y'all funny, because like, when we talk about trans people in sports, I'm like, quiet as it's kept, nobody's wondering what's between my legs, girl, it's you. Like, don't let you be a little bit of tall, you're too muscular, this and that. You're the one that they're gonna, you know, be over-policing, just like always. But that's why it pays to care about other people and know that our struggles are interconnected. Because it's not me. Listen, let everybody tell it. I quote unquote pass. So, you know, it's like, we all are doing it.
Interviewer: I mean, yeah, the category of woman was fundamentally created for white women specifically, and a specific white woman, and that too. So, yeah. I was gonna ask you, going back to a little bit of your history with your current partner, I'm assuming, is the one that you moved from Texas to California with?
Participant: Yeah.
Interviewer: How did y'all meet and how was that transition from Texas to California too?
Participant: Yeah, so we met at a black queer game night, which was really new for me. At the point where we were kinda, I was able to come out of lockdown a bit and felt comfortable, like, to just be around people again. I felt like I charged up, like, just by being at home by myself for so long. Like, I felt like, okay, I'm ready to like, you know, I know myself more. Like, I feel more comfortable and confident in myself. Like, I don't feel like I'm being thrust into anything. Like, I'm, you know, I was dating somebody and then we broke up and I was single for like two months. Like I was just like this is my time outside I guess. And I got myself into all type of shit because I didn't know what the hell I was doing. And I was surprised. I still am surprised like, and this is like a perception thing and like being trans and dysphoria and dysmorphia, but I was so surprised that like these women, these people that I, like beautiful women were like interested in me… and like where it's like… I don't know I feel like people don't take me seriously when I say this stuff, but it's just like when you live in your own body and like you know all the stuff that you go through, like I used to be like you don't want these problems, you don't want these issues. Like don't let me come in and put that on you. But I'm also like self-aware and like willing to work and do work on myself and I take it serious when like I'm talking to somebody. And that's what got me in trouble because like I'm a very… I don't like to talk about like the weather and stuff. I want to talk about like stuff that you go through. It's like –
Interviewer: About trauma.
Participant : Less trauma <inaudible 56:01>. I'm like what who are you, what do you… you know I feel like I I bring my whole self into stuff. So it's just like, you know, but I met her. She was like more forward. I wouldn't have known a thing. I don't pick up on those social cues. If you like me, tell me. If I like you, I'll just tell you this. I don't know how to flirt. What are we talking about? Let's get to the cuts <inaudible 56:26>. And so she was pretty forward. We were playing, I be telling all her business. We were playing Fuck, Marry, Kill. And it got to her and she was like, I fucked <inaudible 56:35>. I said, oh, ooh.
Interviewer: Oh, you were naming people at the game place?
Participant: Yeah.
Interviewer: Oh, wow.
Participant: <inaudible 56:43>
Interviewer: I thought it was gonna be like celebrities or I don't know. Okay.
Participant: We was, we was in there. And it came to me. I was like, I was like, what are we talking about? Like what are we? And we started talking and stuff. And like, she was interested in like knowing more about what I wanted to go to grad school for. And yeah, we've pretty much been rocking. I mean, she, like I asked for her number. And it was interesting because she's older than me. And when we met, she was like, how old… she said something like, I'm probably the oldest person here. And we were like, how, you know, how old are you? And she was like 39. And I was like, damn, that's crazy. My mom at the time was 38. I said, hmm. And so I was like, that's interesting. Well, nobody is asking, like wanting anything serious over here. And she didn't know my age. Like she thought I was like 30. I was 23. So it was like very, like, you know, so we're both like, this ain't you know nothing. And we got to talking, and we, you know, real gay and just like, oh, we clicked, like we just, it was just natural. Like we just felt comfortable, and that's not something that I had before. And she expressed like, it's not, you know, we just both had people trying to change us and like mold us into something and being able to show up to a relationship and just be like, this is who I am. Like, what… I mean, do you want to build a life, you know, with this person? So by the time like we're moving… her parents live in Vegas. And so we, yeah, we, she wanted to be closer to them anyway. And so when I got my acceptance from Claremont in California, like, we're like, well, why don't we just, you know, move? And it was like, we didn't skip a beat. I mean, we just were like, well, this is the grocery store we go to now, and this is where we do this, and this is where we do that. And then it's the same when we moved to Vegas. It's just like kind of seamless in a lot of ways, which I'm grateful for, because who knows? I don't know. We didn't know anything.
Interviewer: Yeah, yeah, that's beautiful. I didn't know that y'all have that age gap too. So that's interesting.
Participant: Yeah, which I feel like people were… I don't know, I feel people who know us know that it's, and this is something we talked about a lot. Like it was something we were intentional of like addressing. Because obviously she was like, if your mom doesn't like me, we can't be together. And I was like, dang, that's true though.
Interviewer: Especially because you're so close with your mom too. Like it doesn't, yeah, it wouldn't be compatible.
>>>>[ Audio Time: 59:32 ]<<<<
Participant: Yeah, but she met my mom. My mom really likes Nina. She came to my mom's wedding in the Virgin Islands. Like we were… but yeah, she, I mean, I think for other people, like it might be a shock at first, but then it, if you know us, like, it just makes sense. It never was like a power thing. It never was like any hierarchy or anything. Like, we're just equals and we just work. And I've always been like, I don't think I have to just offer to nobody my age, respectfully, like, I feel like the people that I was talking to that are my age, like, there were some people that were like, cool, like, it wasn't, you know, but I definitely like… I don't know, I've just been around people who are older than me. And also I've just never thought… I've just never really been into anything like… I mean, growing up with my grandma, like, when you're best friend's, your great grandma, Like, you listen to oldies, you know, you watch the Golden Girls, you like do all this stuff. And I grew up with mom, like I don't really know how to be with people. Especially at that time, like being like 20, like early 20s, it was like, I don't know what to do. Like, I don't know. I gotta, I don't know. It would take showing up in a very specific way because I think when you're younger, like you have expectations what relationships will look like. So with me and Nina it was like neither of us really had any expectations. We knew what we didn't want but it was like, okay, you know we're just kind of being and seeing where it will go. But like she didn't have expectations of me and like gender roles and stuff like that. So I think that came with like age though because that's my typical thing.
Interviewer: Yeah, that's beautiful. I wanted to ask you to… also I know like we're coming close to like that time that we scheduled and I don't know how much time we have left or want to keep going. Like I know we said –
Participant: We can keep going.
Interviewer: Okay.
Participant: I was supposed to have like a check-in with somebody at my job but it's like informal, we don't talk about work. We literally like chat like this.
Interviewer: Okay. I mean so it's okay if we keep going or should I pause for a little bit or how are you feeling?
Participant: I might just ask to move this down a little bit and see how they're feeling. They're also trans. It's like super cool. I like them. Hey, I see them. Way to be OK.
Interviewer: OK. We're back to the interview. So yeah. I mean, we're going, let's go back a little bit then. So we were talking about like grad school and your partner, meeting your partner before you went to grad school. But let's talk about like, you mentioned with me, like you had a lot of experience like doing study abroad and how that really affirmed a lot about who you are. So I don't know if you wanted to talk more about your study abroad experience as an undergrad, right? This was through undergrad, right? Not grad school?
Participant: Yeah. Yeah, I mean, I think I was saying a little like I felt like I dragged my feet through life like and through college because I just didn't feel ready for anything ever. Just like doubting myself, imposter syndrome. And so study abroad like was a really big like push for me. Like I don't really like traveling, being in new places can be pretty difficult. It was difficult. But I… so the study abroad was for, I took an international law course in my, I think junior year, yeah. And when I took the course, it was actually taught by my mentor, Dr. <inaudible 63:40>, she's so funny. But we actually studied, I mean, it was, it was a tough, tough course. Like we studied genocide. That was pretty much, like we studied like international law violations. And so we studied Palestine. We studied, the reason that we went to, we were in The Hague because that's where a lot of like international institutions are. Like the International Criminal Court is there, the Kosovo Chambers. And so we got to do that. But we also went to Bosnia and Herzegovina because we studied the Bosnian genocide. So it was just like very, very heavy. And so the small group that we went with, like we got super close because of that. But it also was like confronting a lot of just like hard truths. Because to learn about it for so long, to learn about like the signs of genocide and to continue to see the same thing play out was just kind of like, that's when I really like learned about Palestine. Like I, you know, and like, we were just like, oh, it's an open air prison. That's like all it is. And we can see clearly the signs of genocide, like, you know, displacing people, moving people from one place to another, like keeping people separated from their family, their people, unable to, you know, procreate with your own people. Like that's genocidal, you know? And so we talked a lot about it. We talked about… yeah. So it was definitely a lot. But I think being in Bosnia, we loved it there. It was so beautiful. And we were like in the thick of it. Like we visited sites of genocide. We visited like the memorial that they had there. And so I think it just like really just made me think outside of myself, honestly. Like, I was going through a lot of shit, like, yeah, traveling is so hard, and then to put the added, like, emotional, like, stress, it was, like, regulating that and trying not to, like, center that and, you know, being there and seeing it was really big. Because I think now, seeing what's happening and like all over the world, everywhere, in the U.S., you know, like it feels like I can unfortunately, like keep a level head to do my work. And it's hard, it's really hard work. But I think being there, seeing people like who had fought, like in the war, seeing the aftermath in that city, it was like, oh, this is what it looks like when the worst of humanity comes to play. And this is what it looks like when people, you know, pick certain traits, religion, to dehumanize people. This is what it looks like right before a genocide happens. These are the elements. And so being in The Hague, it was like, we all had a lot of questions. We were like, so what's the point of international law if it's not binding? Like, whoa. So why do we see so many African nations facing sanctions and having to live, you know, pay fines, but the same and worse happens? And the reason those things are happening, obviously, there's a lot of agency, different tribes, different people, we're always going to be at war and stuff. But a lot of the division that was sown was sown by us, by the Western world. And so it's just like, we were like, hmm. It's just funny to us that even on the international stage this is happening and that we are watching it happen, we can see it, and we supposedly learned so much from the Rwandan genocide, you know, from the truth and reconciliation commissions that happened. Like those things are not happening on an international level. That's like national tragedy that's addressed within those borders. But as far as like what comes of it externally, like, you have to be held accountable, and international law, like, doesn't trump sovereignty of nations, so it's just like, it just sucked. It was like the first time I was like, oh, we're like pretty powerless, actually, in that, in, at that level. Or they were acting powerless, I should say. Like they were acting like we didn't have space to intervene. And so for us it was like how do we not feel small? Like how do we not feel like we're not… this work is like that we're doing something, you know? So it really opened my eyes I think like to a level of suffering that I am privileged enough to not experience in that way. And so it, yeah, it was it was pretty eye-opening. I think, like, traveling and being there, yeah, it was really hard. I had, like, panic attacks. I had a lot of shit going on. Like, we would share every day, like, how we felt, and everybody would be crying and stuff, and, like, I literally, like, couldn't. Like, I would send my professor, like, updates and stuff and, you know, the thoughts that I was having and the things that I was journaling and thinking, but couldn't just sit around and, like… first of all, I just felt like everybody was centering it was a bunch of white people, they were centering how they felt as opposed to the things that we were seeing. Like it just was like, girl, this ain't about you and how you feel about it. We can make space for that but, damn, like is that what we're here to do? Be just oh crying you just want everybody to hug you? Okay, like we're here, like this is what we're here to do. And it wasn't easy. And you know I think people didn't like that I was… it's like just the the story of my life. Like I wasn't showing up how people would have expected me to. And so the assumption was like you're just cold or you're just like being selfish and not wanting to like engage and tell us. And I was just like I can't. It doesn't mean I'm not experiencing it. That's ultimately why I can't do it. Like that's why I can't like sit around and and you know just like like, go through it in this way. Like, I don't have the emotional capacity to hold what we just saw and how y'all all feel about it. No. So it was just, yeah, it was a big leap for me. And I think, like, I've learned how much it came into play, like, in the work that I do. Seeing, like, so much reproductive injustice at that level, like, at a global level and seen how much the U.S. has the power to do. And we've seen like, you know, the global gag rule being reinstituted, and like USAID not paying any more for like reproductive health. It's like, so all of a sudden they have nothing. Like that's, that's just like the global south, like just being completely dependent on the whims of these small men. It's just like, okay, I see. I see what's happening here. It was like my first introduction to that, I think.
>>>>[ Audio Time: 71:19 ]<<<<
Interviewer: Yeah, that is a lot. And to try to hold white people's feelings during all that is just like, what are y'all doing? Which makes me think the professor probably, if that's like a routine trip or study abroad program, it's like they probably knew, like these are the things that are gonna come up and stuff too, so.
Participant: Yeah, and I think they built that in. And she understood also like that I wasn't okay with it, which was nice. I think the rest of the people was just like, you trying to be all special, girl. I don't want to feel like this, so yeah.
Interviewer: So how did this experience then inform the work that you do or how did it inform you in your program in grad school?
Participant: I think the courses that I wanted to take had more of a global perspective about organizing, about what struggle looks like across borders, why it's always mirroring, why we keep repeating the same patterns. That's what I, that's, I mean, systems, that's what I love to interrogate. Like, how do we get here? How do we get to the place where people think that other people don't deserve humanity? Like, it's just weird to me. So it just, it informed, I think it informed more than I thought. Because having the language to talk about it when other people were kind of… and again, I learned about it not too long, I learned about Palestine not too long ago my damn self, like in college. Like it wasn't at the same time that we saw the genocide that's taking place now, specifically the escalation of it. Like, it becoming more widespread and people understanding what's happening. Like, I think when it started happening, and it kicked off at this rate, it was just kind of like, damn, we been knowing this. And it's just the story of our lives, it's just like, we're so reactive. So that was like, yeah, it was a really big defining point, like in my studies also. And I didn't know I brought so much of that experience, like my study abroad, but especially just like the international law course into my work. Like I didn't, I thought I like had a very like US centric, and I do, in a lot of ways, like focus. But I care about incorporating a like international, global like lens. So that was kind of how it informed it I think of it.
Interviewer: Can you share more than how like you're connected to like these struggles towards like reproductive justice work or even like what are you what are your thoughts on abortion work too? Like how are you connected to this?
Participant: Um well I would say like gender studies was a big part of it. I think like my last couple semesters, like when I studied under like Dr. Bond, Toni M. Bond, who's like one of the founding mothers of RJ, it was just like, it just clicked for me that, of course, something that's like created and led by like black women is gonna be liberatory in one way or another, with all its flaws and everything. But as far as like the concept of it, of course it's all encompassing. Of course it like, you know, is trying to let rising tides lift all boats. Like, of course it's like centering, you know, those most marginalized. And so I think for me, it was like, oh, RJ's is the framework I've kind of been searching for. Like I think, you know, I had done like social justice and racial justice and all of these things. And then I took like a womanist theological ethics and abolition course. And it was just like this complete change in how I thought of these systems, especially like through a black lens, black queer lens. And theology was important to me to study because I've always like wondered about faith, like what gives people faith. Especially because my brain is often preoccupied with like the worst of humanity. And so, and the just indiscriminate, like just randomness of it. Like early on, I was like, good things don't always happen to good people and bad things don't always happen to bad people. And that just feels like, how can you trust in a system and think of like, and have belief really that things will go good or that certain people, they'll get their comeuppance like from the universe. Like those aren't things that like are tangible in my mind. And my grandma was like super devout, like Christian Baptist, Southern Baptist, like Christian. And so for her, it was like, she just believed to her core. And so much tragedy happened in her life and my family that I just didn't even understand like why she would. Like why you would constantly be like hoping for the best when a lot of the worst is coming all the time since she was like young. And when stuff like that happens to like people you love, it's just like, you can't help but have some resentment and question all these belief systems that they've like, you know, submitted to in a lot of ways. But I think learning about it from a womanist perspective was like, oh, okay, it's a choice. I mean, it's, you know, like you can choose to think of things a specific way for yourself. And not because you're like trying to appease anybody or make anybody else feel like you're, you know, be comfortable with your suffering. And so, yeah, that course was like really big in like getting to that place. And Dr. Bond spoke, I think a couple of times to us in that course too. And then I took her like intro to reproductive justice and just learned so much about the history. That was like a lot of the main part of the course. And so for me, it was like, okay, I love going to the roots and then like kind of spreading out. Like, okay, I can build on that now and not enter into it, not knowing anything. Cause I think a lot of people do that. And then they come in, like they have some sort of authority talking about it, especially like non-black people. And I was really like, that's embarrassing. So if you've read <inaudible 78:31>. That's really, like it's not rooted in anything, you know? So that's, yeah, that was like the good thing about doing that like program. And then, yeah, doing the birth worker like program. Like before that I did a program with URGE. Unite for Reproductive and Gender Equity, yeah. And I did like a journalism and media fellowship. And that was like very RJ focused. And just really like being able to create was interesting because I'm so used to like writing and it's dry and like had to kind of get outside of that like academic kind of lean. That that's like how I've been taught to write. But to make it like grounded in something like reality. This is what's actually happening, and this is this is an intervention for this. You know, this is how we might, you know, change the way we talk about these things, the rhetoric like. And so yeah, and then doing the birth worker program with LifeWerq. Like it's funny, because my partner sent both of those like things to me, because I'm very like, adding anything to my plate, like I just get anxious. And so I'm glad that she did. And I learned so much. I had so much like imposter syndrome and like learned that, oh, I do have stuff to contribute like in this work. And that's not something I would have expected. So, yeah.
>>>>[ Audio Time: 80:09 ]<<<<
Interviewer: Do you identify as like a birth worker?
Participant: It depends.
Interviewer: Yeah, how do you identify with that term?
Participant: I tell people that, but really only like trusted people because-
Interviewer: That you are a birth worker, that you tell people that you trust it, yeah.
Participant: Huh?
Interviewer: You said you trust, that you tell people who you trust that you are a birth worker? Is that?
Participant: Yeah, but like, I feel like again, like when I tell other people, like even it's on my… it's on our like work website and I was like, I want to read <inaudible 80:43>. But yeah, it's like a, I think because of how other people view it, and because I haven't like assisted people in birth specifically, like it's hard to call myself that. But I think that's why like my job is so hard, because I want to do more care work, and that hasn't always been the case because I've just felt so like consumed, like really tortured in my mind about my own stuff and like –
Interviewer: Trying to care for yourself. Like like that's what really you've been doing. Yeah.
Participant: Yeah, so it's but it's like, yeah, I really want to be in it. And I think I, I didn't think I had the skill set because I feel… like I… it… you can't bullshit care work, you can't. And so for me, like the white people I work with, all that, I could bullshit that if I wanted to now. I don't, because again, I'm serving my communities. But when you're person to person, like, I really want to show up in a specific way. And I think I don't have the sense or didn't for a while to, like, I could. But in reality, I'm like, people like me, I'm personable, like, let people tell it, like, they are comfortable around me. Because I just bring myself I don't try to be anything I'm not. Like so like vulnerability begets vulnerability. Like if you're vulnerable with people hopefully they'll feel like safe to do the same. And so really it was like Amaria saying, from the program, saying like I would want you know you to support me like in my… like you know and I was just like that's a lot of you know trust and faith in someone. And so it's like, it kind of spurs me, like, care work. Like, I would have to trust myself a lot. So that's what, why I would want to lean into it more. Because just to have the, like, yeah, the confidence that you can help people in this, like, super vulnerable moment, I really want that. So, yeah, I don't really say it all the time to people, especially people I don't know, because it's like, you think I'm a doula, you think I'm a midwife. And sometimes I ain't got the energy to explain all of that. So I tell people I'm a resource a lot. And I like being a resource. That's what I think is good about having a research mind.
Interviewer: I mean, that informative part of the birth worker is super important too. Like, I don't know, birth worker is such a like, people try to put it in such a small, narrow category, right? And I try to when I'm texting you, I'm like, yeah, you're a birth worker, because you provide resources and information and all the research that you do. And like, yeah, so I've been calling you a birth worker. Yeah. But like, what is that distinction that you're saying about between care work and birth work? Like you are saying, like you're making this distinction, so I don't know if you wanted to talk more about that.
Participant: I guess like birth work, I think because it has birth in it, it like has a specific connotation. And so… and even care worker, like these are hard terms for me to adopt, because like my partner, she's like, it's easy to say she does like care work and like, you know, does, like, direct, like, person to person. She's a grief doula, death doula, so, like, always holding that space for people. Like, but I think, for me, because my capacity fluctuates, like, it, it, I worry about being able to care for someone, like. And when they're in need, if, like, I'm not able to bring that type of energy. But, yeah, care, care work, like, it it feels more all encompassing. I especially feel like really drawn to helping trans people in any way I can, like any stage of life, any, you know, like… I like talking to people, like other trans people. It's like cathartic for me to like hear other people talk about their relationship to their gender and sexuality and these systems. And so that feels like care work. And I think I'm starting to see that more. I'll have a conversation with anybody about that stuff. So yeah, I feel like that's like care in a way, as opposed to like birth. But transness is, you know, rebirth in a lot of ways. Like, you're birthing yourself, really. So.
Interviewer: Right. Yeah, I appreciate you saying that. I mean, there's also like gender, gender doulas, too. Like, I think that's what you-
Participant: I heard about this. I am like wait a minute let's find out. I didn't know that was a thing. I've only seen like a couple people, I should follow more, I look for more people because I have only seen like one person. Yeah like I went to their website, I forget.
Interviewer: Are they called like the gendered doula kind of thing?
Participant: Yeah. But other than that yeah I haven't really seen… I guess because they name it and I don't know if like a lot of people name… I've seen a lot of people who you could –
Interviewer: Right. I mean trans people have been doing gender doula stuff since the beginning. Like they just never called themselves that. So yeah so.
Participant: Yeah. I think I am glad that like my mind is allowing me to like think more expansively about this stuff.
Interviewer: Right, right. I know you talked a little bit more about like before about your fertility journey with your partner. I don't know if you wanted to share more about that or like how's that been going?
Participant: Yeah, it's interesting because when I feel like… I should have said whenever we met like I didn't, I never wanted to have kids. Like it was was just never… and I think even talking about it now has been helpful, like thinking through like why I think certain ways about this stuff. Because a lot of it is about capacity and my trust in myself. Like I take it very, very seriously. And I've seen a lot of adults who like are less than ideal parents. And I just couldn't imagine hurting a kid, I just can't. And so for me growing up, it was like, this is a lot of work. I didn't even like kids when I was a kid. I was so tired. I was like, oh, I can't do it. I don't have anything left to give after I come back from school, middle school. So like babysitting, all these things, I was like, that's a responsibility that I don't feel comfortable taking on. And I was so curious about pregnancy and like birthing. And that's why I thought I wanted to do like medicine. But like, I'm not a super, well, it depends, you know. I'm not squeamish about birth, that's for sure. I love watching birth videos. I just feel like I learn so much. But when I was a kid, it was like, I was so curious, but freaked out by like pregnancy. Like whenever… I was always talking to adults. And I remember like when I was a kid, how old was I? I was probably like nine or 10. And I would go like after school to this like camp thing, daycare essentially. And until my mom got off of work and there was someone there, this woman, and she got pregnant. And I would talk to her all the time all the time. And then I remember she like stopped me one time and she was like… or we were walking like from the playground or something and she was like, hey, Chancy are you doing okay? How are you doing? I was like I'm okay. And she was like you know I noticed you know we haven't really chatted much like in the past few months. Like and she was like… and it's funny because I have a friend who is kind of the same, which I don't know how she like knew this. I don't I don't even think I recognized this, but she was like I have a friend who's the same way who's like really freaked out by like pregnancy and like all of that. So like I get it if that's… and I was so embarrassed. Like I was mortified because I was just like I don't want to talk about it. I was very just like really uncomfortable with like reproductive… like my mom was very intentional about teaching me about sex and about my body. And that's why I had so much confidence in it, I think. And not feeling shame about pleasure. Like, she was very, like, you know. And so it's weird that I was, like, always so uncomfortable, or I still am, like, uncomfortable in a lot of ways talking about sex, and, like, I think I've still internalized so much about it. But yeah, like I never wanted to have kids. And then really it like coincided kind of nicely with like meeting Nina. And then I started T. And they had asked me before I started, like, do you want to do like <inaudible 90:04>? Like, you know, all that stuff. And I was like, girl, that's too expensive. I'm trying to start this. And I don't even know that I want to have kids. And then we started talking more and I was like, you know, for the first time I was like actually seeing it happening, but I think it was like divorcing it from myself. Like, I don't have to show, I don't have to do this specific thing. And to me, when I was a kid, it was like, if I want kids, first of all, that's a huge responsibility. And secondly, oh, this is the specific way that, route that I have to go to have kids. And I was so just like uncomfortable. And I would ask, like, I knew how painful it was. I knew, like, I had so many people, like around me who had kids, my cousins, my aunt. And I remember like having a conversation with my aunt, like, so why are you doing this? Like, she got pregnant when she was 16, and then she got pregnant again when she was 18. And I remember talking to her and just being like, why, why you wanna do this? Like, as painful as it was and this and that there she was explaining to me like the connection and how beautiful it was and like her connection to her son. And I was just like, girl, what are you talking about? I was so confused and so I just never could connect it. But I think it was like my own gender stuff. Like I didn't know how to reconcile like if I want this thing, which I technically really don't. Even if I did, this is how I would have to go about it. And I just, I don't want to do that. I just I literally can't even imagine it. But then meeting Nina and like talking more about it, like, we just like you know we start, we just started yeah chatting about it and it just kind of became like this common thing. Like oh when we have kids and this and that. And it was exciting. And then I think moving and like all of that. And I went through like a really bad like depressive episode for like a year probably. It was actually 2023, and I questioned everything. And a lot of it was like switching like depression medication and just… it's scary to think about like the dysphoria around… like we're not, I'm not talking about gender dysphoria, I'm talking about just not being able to see the world the way the world is. Like not being able to see past my own depression and how I feel about myself to like hear what other people are saying and like hear that I'm safe in a lot of ways. Like it was just like people will say the same things that they said to me then and it's like I think completely differently about it. Like I would just spiral. And so that really made me question a lot. Like it was a really hard time because I was like I don't even think I have the capacity for myself, I don't know if I have the capacity for our relationship. Like it just kind of shifted how we saw it a lot. And it was sad and it was like I feel I still feel like guilty and sad about like how it affected Nina and like it was just not a good time. So I think my relationship to it changed and then I started like doing RJ and like the life work program. And doing life work was so like like, transformational because, or transformative because, like, even just it being other, like, trans people and seeing that you don't have to… I think I came to the conclusion that I wouldn't, like, carry because I was just, like, I don't think I would… I didn't think I deserved it. That was part of it. Like, I didn't think I, like, deserved this magical thing that everyone feels so like let let… the way I thought about it was like everyone feels so great about it. And like if I'm not going to feel like that and I'm just going to like have that energy and not you know feel good, like then I shouldn't do it. And going there it was like you're your own. Like you're not completely insert… like in service to this person going if you're not okay they won't be okay. That's just what it is. Like you have to take care of yourself. Like you're you know, being very intentional about what that care looks like. And like, we all deserve this at all times, but in this particularly vulnerable time, like, how important it is to have people around that, you know, really, I don't know, just really, like, appreciate who you are, and are just, like, willing to give so much to help you bring this, like, person into the world. It's just a very different way of thinking about it, I guess. So yeah, starting out, we started the process pretty much after I had gone to the in-person one. And it was just different. It was just like, oh, this is what it can look like. This is what communal care looks like. It doesn't feel like anybody has to feel like they have to show up in a particular way. Like, if you don't have it… I remember, like, my grandma, my paternal great-grandma, my nanny, she had passed, like, a couple weeks before, and during, like, our first, like, little circle, morning circle, and, like, I was just, like, bawling. I was crying, so… I was embarrassed. I hate crying in front of people. I hate crying in front of people. And so I like went upstairs and I was just like crying. And so many people were just like, you okay? Like you know, I don't I don't want to encroach, like do you want space? And I was like yeah. And then later on like you know everyone was just so like gracious and giving of their energy. Like and it didn't have to be about birthwork. Like it wasn't like a birthing. Like that wasn't particular to, you know, you going through that process or being pregnant or postpartum. Like, it was just like freely given, you know. I mean, I was like, oh, I feel like this is like a possible thing because I wouldn't have to do it myself. Like, I wouldn't have to just be responsible for this person all by myself. And so, yeah, we were, I did that and then I came back. We started with like the fertility process, really just like all the testing. That took like months and months. So we went through all that. Our you know doctor was really great. She had like worked with other trans like people and so she opened my eyes to a lot of stuff. I didn't know that like if I was to give eggs you know… like she was like, we wouldn't assume that you wouldn't be able to. That's not an assumption we would make. And if so that's something you're open to, we'll explore that, but if not then there are other things to explore. Like you don't have to do it. And I was like I mean you know, like just the sheer fact of just being younger than my partner, that's like all it is. And like theoretically our chances are higher. And so I was like I mean I could you know… and I was telling her like what I would be worried about. And mostly it's like going off of T. And like my body just hates estrogen, hates, hates, hates like with the PMDD with everything… even I still have the PMDD. And if I even miss like one shot my period will threaten to come back like nothing. Like it's just like that's not common, you know? Like my doctors are confused. Like it's just like unfort – it's like fortunate but unfortunate. I'm so in tune with my body like I know when I'm ovulating still to this day. So it's just it's weird to want to be outside of your body but then be so connected. And so I don't think it would be like the hardest process. And she told me like we don't, she doesn't have people go off of T necessarily. Like it doesn't impact the process. Like obviously if you're carrying it's different, but like she was like we would give you like a lower dose of like the estrogen. We, you know, it's a three-week situation if you want to do like egg retrieval and stuff. So I was like, that feels like a, you know, doable, like, other option. So I went through all the testing. It was really cool, you know, doing birth work, it was like, I'm learning so much. You don't know until you're really in it, though.
Interviewer: Right.
Participant: And so they got all of her stuff back. We had, like, our last appointment in, like, December. Like, just all the, like, results of all the tests. And they have this, like, software that… because she was like, I'm not going to tell you a bunch of made-up percentages. Like I don't know I don't know your body. Like we will… I won't know any of that until we go through all the testing, I learn more about like your history, all that stuff. And I really appreciated that because there's so much fear-mongering. Like they're there they will tell you a lot about what happens after 40 or 35 or whatever.
Interviewer: Right, geriatric pregnancy or whatever.
Participant: Like apparently they stopped saying that.
Interviewer: Oh good good because –
Participant: Even that. <inaudible 99:23> terrible. I hate that. Geriatric. What's going on, man? My 30s wife being called geriatric is just like, I don't know, it's shaming to me, that's why.
Interviewer: It's messed up, yeah.
Participant: But yeah, so did that last appointment. She like did have software where knowing all the numbers and where Nina was at, like got a percentage like range. And it wasn't super high. I think it was like 7% or something of like for live birth. But ultimately, theirs is like a bit higher actually cause they just, I don't know, they're a good clinic, I don't know. But she input like my age into it and like erased Nina's and all of a sudden it was like 70%. And so it was just kind of like, oh. Cause I thought that I would have to carry it to have that be a higher chance. But she was like, no, all things equal, like if you account for your age and like with your eggs it's completely, it's like a person your age… I was like, interesting. So that's like where we were. Then we had like the financial meeting, consultation. And that lady went through all those prices. I sent… first they sent us like a bill essentially. Like, oh, it'll just be this much. It was like $7,000. Like, just write this check right quick.
Interviewer: For the egg retrieval process?
Participant: Yeah, this is like for, well, no, this is, well, okay, this is the initial payment to start.
Interviewer: The hormones.
Participant: Yeah, and the hormones and the meds are separate. Those are about $5500, period. Those aren't covered by insurance or nothing. Now, this is with our insurance. Like, our insurance is really great. They're like, we cover, like, you know, assistive reproductive technology. Cool. But what that means is, like… because at first I was like, okay, so their lab now is even in network for us. So we're like, oh, okay, cool. Then, shoot, we don't have… shit, everything is in network at this point, except for like the birthing center, I think. But we could like find another one. So we were like, you know, Nina, she was going to have like a surgery to remove like a polyp. What was it? A polyp? Yes, a polyp. She right here. And that's in her uterus. That's like non-cancerous or anything. It's just like, really, the doctor was like, this is like pretty much exactly where we would want an embryo to like be implanted and these like to bleed and so like polyps. So like you would probably shed it in a heavy period or something. But you know it could lower your chances. So she was gonna do that but she hadn't done it yet. And we knew how much that surgery would be. She had like scheduled it. We got this bill, I said huh. And we had a like consultation. We like set it down for a minute, like we had just put it to the side because I think both of us were just like, that feels out of touch. Then Trump was elected and we were like, oh, hey who want to be pregnant at this time? This is wild to me. And so like literally going into the new year like our whole perspective around it had changed. And it was like sad because I was like, dang, I'm not even… and I don't know how I'm processing it, honestly. I think now I have more. But for a while, I just was like, I didn't even have the energy to even think through it, like all the other shit that was going on, like survival mode. And so we had a consultation with the financial advisor and went through everything. So I was like, OK, is this $2,000 right here, is that to meet our deductibles? She said, oh, no, these don't count toward… what are you talking about? What is in network? Like, what are you talking about? She was like, yeah. And I was like, so these are the prices, you factored in our insurance? She was like, mm-hmm. These, she was like, this is actually, yeah, this is very, this is much more affordable. I was like, hmm. It's still gonna be like a 10, 12 to 15K for one cycle. For one cycle. That's not to mention like, yeah, all the appointments, the cost of like the birth, you know, let you, you know, have a kid.
Interviewer: The cost of raising a kid.
Participant: Like, <inaudible 104:10> going into raising a kid. And there's no guarantee. So it was just kind of like, that's wild to come out of pocket that much and be like, you know? So we were kind of like, I don't know. I was feeling… we had already started talking a bit about like adoption, cause we were like, we don't know, we don't know. So for me, we had just like mentioned it briefly, really briefly. But we're like, that was always something that like Nina had wanted to do. And like, I don't care what, I don't care about, like relation, I don't care about being related, none of that. Like, if you my kid, you my kid, I don't care. So I was like, you know. But we were like still like, do we want to do a cycle? And like, I do. Like the, but either way, like it's a lot of <inaudible 105:02> money. So we weren't really doing it. And then recently, and we've like barely discussed this, like, I was like, you know, why don't we just get sperm and try? Like, this never crossed our minds to just like do it, like try it at home. Why not? Why didn't it cross our mind? And then I've been thinking more on it, I guess, and would probably be more open to carrying also, which has been a newer situation. And I think… I was telling Nina, I was like, I don't know, it's something about staring down a 15K bill that might snap you out of <inaudible 105:42>. If it's possible, and we wanna try it, who am I to not <inaudible 105:50>? That's like where we're at, but it's very like, it's still survivable. Nina's in school. So we were going to wait until like after she's done anyway. So it'll probably be something we start thinking more about next year. That's pretty much the update. It's been a journey.
Interviewer: Yeah, it's it's awful that it costs so much money for trans people to have kids and in that kind of like you said biological way, too
Participant: Yeah, and I have my own misgivings about it. Like I don't… I don't know. I think assistive reproductive technology is also a disability justice like issue And this whole like grading embryos and weeding out. They're like making me pretty uncomfortable.
Interviewer: Right. It's a eugenics project for sure.
Participant: And that doesn't have to be how it's used, but that's how it's being used. That's why these <inaudible 106:57> are engineering kids. It's like your outcome, you're going even farther back determining, like not just from birth or like when you're assigned male or female. It's like you're going way back to when they're like just a sperm and egg cell to determine… like you don't know what will happen like with this potential human. Like you don't you can't you can't guarantee that. And it just puts even more stress on this small human person who isn't here just to like live to fulfill whatever dream you have. So I'm like that always was like I don't know how I would feel about that anyway. So but yeah it sucks that it's like completely inaccessible. But that's where we're at.
Interviewer: I mean I'm excited to follow your fertility journey, Chance, and to see how that goes. I know we've been recording for a long time and it's probably time for lunch and things, but I really appreciate you sharing your history. Is there anything else that you wanted to share or didn't get a chance to share?
Participant: I want to just, thanks for, you know, doing this project and being like diligent and intentional about it. I, you know, it just, it's nice to see that people are still interested in preserving our history. And it's even more important now, we're seeing a lot of it being erased. And so for me, like, being a part of something like this, knowing all about what the other side is trying to do to us, it's just makes me feel good. I was like excited about it. And you know, I like you and everything. So that's cool.
Interviewer: I like you too.
Participant: You my friend, you know. But yeah I mean I think if you have… like I'm excited to follow up and like see more of the project and see where it goes and stuff. And however I can help, you know. I write and stuff like that or whatever.
Interviewer: Yeah I super appreciate we're in community now and forever so I really appreciate you, Chance, and I'm gonna stop the recording now if that's okay.
Participant: Yeah, that's cool.